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News :: Education : Globalization : Human Rights : Labor
Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
09 May 2005
As an immigrant, Araceli has a hard time feeling like she belongs. She fled social unrest in Guatemala with her family when she was only five years old, speaks English better than Spanish, but has been forced to live in the fringes of society because she is considered illegal. “I’ve been here for sixteen years. I consider myself an American,” she said.

The first time she found out about her status was when she tried to apply for college and was told the benefit of a higher education did not apply to her. One year after graduating from high school with a 3.5 GPA and unable to work legally in this country, she feels uneasy about her future. “Put your self in my shoes. I want an education and a career,” she said.
P905daughter.jpg
As ruled by the Supreme Court in Plyer vs. Doe, 457 U.S. 202, in 1982, undocumented children have the right to attend public schools through grade twelve, but when they graduate from high school their amnesty ends harshly. High school graduates without legal immigration status cannot legally work, can attend college only as international students at out-of-state tuition rates, and are not eligible for federal student aid.

Currently, state and national officials are reviewing laws to try to integrate some of the 790,000 plus children who live illegally in this country. The Dream Act, at the national level, would grant resident status to immigrant children who have been in the country for more than five years, for finishing high school, and having a clean police record. The In-State Tuition Bill in Massachusetts (H-1230), endorsed by the House Ways and Means Committee, is the option for immigrant young adults to pay in-state college tuition as long as they have lived in the state for at least three years and have graduated from high school.

Araceli and several other students joined forces two years ago to advocate for the above legislation under the United We Dream Tour. Sponsored by the Massachusetts Immigrant and Refugee Advocacy Coalition (MIRA) and a few other organizations, the tour stopped in 10 locations across Massachusetts and Rhode Island in April of 2005 alone. Last year they traveled to Washington, D.C., to meet students from all over the US and lobby for the above legislation.

“In Washington, DC, we had a target to get 65,000 petitions [to support the Dream Act] and got more than 100,000. It was really good experience for us. People came from Chicago, Texas, California, Florida,” said Araceli.

In 2001, California and Texas were the first states to enact legislation allowing in-state tuition for undocumented immigrants. Similar legislation has been passed in Utah, California, New York, Illinois, Washington, and Oklahoma, and it is being considered in another 14 states.

Texas legislators based their decision partly on research presented by Texas House Research Organization (THRO), which indicated that not helping students' attend college resulted in much greater costs to the state by contributing to an uneducated workforce. By 1998, the number of dropouts in Texas had increased to almost 1.2 million with the costs estimated at $319 billion.

Last year in Massachusetts, the bill unanimously passed Board of Higher Education but was vetoed when it reached Governor Mitt Romney’s desk in October 2004.

“In general, the governor wants to make it easier, not more difficult, for students to afford college in our state. But, at the same time, he vetoed this measure last year because we should not make it easier for illegal aliens to violate federal immigration law, and we shouldn’t excuse those violations of the law by giving illegal aliens the same benefits we provide our citizens,” said Shawn Freedman, a spokesperson from Governor Romney’s office.

Proponents of the law say that it would benefit the economy in the long run by having an educated work force. “Of course, the more opportunity we can provide to enhance the education levels of our workforce, I think it’s a positive thing for the economy,” said Susan Houston, Executive Director at the Massachusetts Alliance for Economic Development made up of 45 plus industries in real state, finance and law, design, architecture, and trade.

With a 3.9 GPA and a 1200 score on his SAT, Cristian would be a perfect candidate to fill an empty chair at one of the state’s colleges. He fled Colombia’s violence with whatever he could fit in one small suitcase and the clothes on his back. “I had to leave all my medals behind, all 15 of them hanging from the mirror in my room,” he said. These were academic achievement medals he had won while attending a Catholic boarding school in Medellin.

“In terms of status I think what has been created in the last 20 years in this country is apartheid for immigrants, and the reason why I say apartheid is because there’s a legal structure that puts immigrants in a different place,” said John Wilshire-Carrera, a lawyer at the Harvard Law Refugee Clinic. “So on the one hand the walls have gotten thicker but have also gotten higher. It has become harder to move from being undocumented to being documented, and I think that has really affected kids a lot,” he said.

“Immigrants have become scapegoats for anything bad that happens,” said Ms. Heloisa Galvaço, founder of Brazilian Women’s Group and long-time immigrant rights activist. She said that US policies are targeting illegal immigrants unjustly, that the culture of fear and distrust that has erupted since September 11, 2001, has forced many immigrant children under a further layer of invisibility.

Claudia Rodriguez, Bilingual Counselor at East Boston High School, placed most of her hopes this year on Camilo, one of Cristian’s classmates, who also arrived illegally to this country and will graduate with a 4.0 GPA. Camilo is a member of the Junior ROTC program in his high school and successfully completed courses last summer in Virginia Military Institute, one of the top military academies in the United States.

With the help of Ms. Rodriguez, Camilo submitted this past December an application for admission to Hamilton College through the Posse Foundation’s Dynamic Assessment Process, a program run with private funds used to identify students in urban areas who are often overlooked by the admission process.

Camilo talked about a best friend who had fewer alternatives and decided to go back to Colombia instead. “He loves it here but he doesn’t have [legal] papers,” said Camilo, “He says that he wants to go back to his country and have all the rights he can have there, instead of remaining here and live in the shadows.”

At East Boston High School, administrators take students’ cases one by one. Francisco Guernica, program director for 9th grade, said that some of the undocumented students can get very emotional. “Just the other day I was talking to one of them and he was saying that he sees no reason for finishing high school because there is no way for him to move forward. So I was telling him that you never know what life is going to present you with in the future. You should think about things that way, not just giving up.”

As 1.9 million boomers approach their retirement age, according to the Massachusetts Institute for a New Commonwealth (MassINC), the number of prime age workers is projected to decline in the next 20 years, leaving a potential labor shortage in Massachusetts. Their research found that foreign immigrants were responsible for 82 percent of the net growth in the state's civilian labor force between the 1980s and 1997.

From 1990 to 2000, the Latino population in Massachusetts grew by 49.1%, according to the John W. McCormack School of Policy Studies at the University of Massachusetts. Among the overall Latino population, recently arrived immigrant children account for about 10% of all children under 18.

On December of 2004, Camilo took the morning train alone to New York State for the fourth time to be interviewed by Hamilton College’s admission officials. He was one of 500 candidates who applied for the scholarship and this time was no longer nervous although he couldn’t believe he had made it this far. The interview was long in the presence of six officials, but the final decision did not make itself wait. Camilo received a call the next day to learn that he would receive a full four-year scholarship to study at Hamilton College and that the school would issue a student visa for him. Finally, the doors of opportunity had opened up for him.

“I’m feeling pretty good, pretty excited about it. At least now I’m going to be able to go to college,” said Camilo. Now that he will have an international student visa, the first thing Camilo thought was going back to Colombia to see his family again: cousins, aunts, uncles and his stepfather, whom he had not seen in four-and-a-half years.

Cristian, meanwhile, is hopeful and unwavering that the rules of the game will change soon for him as well. Out his large group of Latino friends, he is the only undocumented one. They often joke around with him about his “American heritage” because he has the lightest skin of the group. “It’s hard to see them go to college. All I can do is wait,” he said.

Feature photograph by Cory Campbell.
students.jpg
See also:
http://www.miracoalition.org/tour.htm

This work licensed under a
Creative Commons license.
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Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
09 May 2005
excellent article! are there any other resources or organizations that we could look into supporting for this issue?
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
09 May 2005
Considering that none of those mentioned are legitimate assylum seekers or legally in the country, it would appear that we, the taxpayers, are being asked to pay for the abuse and neglect that bringing a child into a lifestyle of clandestinity and illegality entails. As a Hispanic, who is a citizen and who has traveled through Latin America for more than a decade, I can not condone or support illegal immigration. Most of those mentioned here arrived as a result of their parent's desire for better income. We have legal paths for those who seek to enter our country. Use them. To ask us to underwrite a criminal family enterprise is certainly in keeping with the policy of illegal alien supporters who've managed a campaign of mission creep to legalize any and all foreigners who may arrive here for whatever purpose. What is the Jr ROTC doing accepting an illegal alien? Haven't we learned enough about training foreigners without security clearances and what this can cause? I look forward to contacting every legislator and representative to object to this pandering measure.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
09 May 2005
The truth remains that these individuals are better off than they would have been in their native countries. They have benefited greatly from their illegal status and now, it is time for them to face the harsh realities of life. But the realities are not so harsh after all. Having received the benefit of an American public education, they are free to do any number of things. As any other foreign student, they can pay the tuition assessed to foreign students, attend college and earn a degree. They are also free to attend college in any other country that accepts foreign students. Indeed these students have the advantage of having been educated in the United States! But granting them in-state tuition rates is unfair to those immigrants who followed the laws of the United States and immigrated legally. Allowing them to remain in the country to attend college with other foreign students is a privilege - a privilege that few other countries would grant to illegal aliens.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
09 May 2005
Actually, it is not easy to apply for college as a foreign student. Student visa applications require applicants to show documentation of their ability to finance their education. That is, you need to show you have at least $30,000 plus in the bank for the first year. Sometimes they ask for 2 years. So this option is available only to privileged foreign students.

In response to Carlos' concern, yes it is true that US taxpayers are paying for the high cost of illegal immigration. The problem is that US foreign policy in Latin America, by arming and supporting tyrannical governments, promotes the kind of illegal immigration we've seen since the 1980s. It is no coincidence that most Latino immigrants come from El Salvador, Colombia, Honduras, and Guatemala. Countries that have devastated by war.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
09 May 2005
Sorry. Most illegal Latinos come from Mexico.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
09 May 2005
In the New England area...
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
09 May 2005
In the New England area, most illegal aliens are from the Carribean. Most illegal aliens in the southwest are Mexican.

I am Hispanic and am the daughter of two illegal aliens. What a lot of people don't realize is the reason there are so many illegal aliens, as opposed to legal immigrants, is that many people don't have the resources to immigrate legally.
Que sera sera sounds great on a violin.
09 May 2005
As ruled by the Supreme Court in Plyer vs. Doe, 457 U.S. 202, in 1982, undocumented children have the right to attend public schools through grade twelve, but when they graduate from high school their amnesty ends."

I find it appalling that the children are allowed to stay at all, since the biggest single issue in our school systems is class size. The illegal parents of illegal children in the United States has gotten out of control, and can only get worse unless more measures are taken like those in California where the states form their own Border Patrol agencies to do the job that the Federal agencies will not do.

The issue of education and the "greater opportunities in life" need to be fostered in the home countries of those Latinos. Isnt it just a cop-out to say that Mexico offers no opportunities and that life is so terrible? Mexico is an oil-producing nation, rich in resources, but its people REFUSE to do anything to change it. They REFUSE to see the folly of their Catholic edicts which tell them to "be fruitful and multiply". They REFUSE to ask the United States to intervene in a corrupt and oppressive government. The faults of these nations are their own. Its not fair to Latinos who are here legally to support the concerns of criminals (made so by their illegal entry into this country).

They should be thankful that they werent deported at children.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
09 May 2005
Jackie Salazar said: "What a lot of people don't realize is the reason there are so many illegal aliens, as opposed to legal immigrants, is that many people don't have the resources to immigrate legally. " And just how is that our fault? The world is full of people who are desperately poor, does Salazar think that they ALL should be allowed to not only come here, but be given free K-12 education and now get a break on college tuition? At what point will Ms. Salazar's compassion grow thin?
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
09 May 2005
Can we talk for a moment about why people from Mexico and Latin America might be risking their lives to come to the US in the first place?

Can we try to remember that it may have something to do with NAFTA, neo-liberalism, corporate theft, brutal dictatorships, CIA coups, economic imperialism, the plundering of their resources, etc? All dome with our tax dollars and all serving to impoverish their nations while enriching ours.

Something to think about next time you whine about not wanting about .0001 % of your taxes going to their education.

A charming attitude to be sure…sigh…this is perhaps a futile exercise in reality.

NO ONE IS ILLEGAL!
Hope is the last that dies
09 May 2005
Illegal immigrants pay taxes just like the rest of us (concluding that illegal immigrants are helping you pay for your IN-STATE tuition). They should not be judged by their parents folly actions. America is not trying to encourage the problem we have now but to fix it. Put yourself in their shoes, how would you feel? You'd have to be an immigrant to understand their pain. To the American tax payer "They should be thankful that they werent deported at children." Most immigrants who grew up here would have rather been deported than to live in a nation in which they cannot endow. Is it wrong to excuse a man from punishments, if all he did was steal medicine for his dying wife? Just so you know we are all immigrants, excluding Native Americans, illegal or not we are all the same.
Play your own f'ing violin
09 May 2005
Excuse you "American Taxpayer", but the influence of the catholic church is strong in incredibly wealthy and incredibly impoverished countries alike (see: France, Spain, Italy, Mexico, Honduras, Nicaragua, and even America). I am an atheist and have little respect for the Catholic church, but I do not allow my disdain for its action in the past to color my view of its influence in the present.
The fact that Mexico's government is corrupt is a very complex issue, and we are in large part responsible for it. We stole their land (just as we stole the rest of the land we claim to "own"), we have tried interfering in their local and national government structures since the beginning of the 19th century. As with many other parts of Central and South America (including Colombia, Venezuela, Panama, and Peru), Mexico's government and economy is in a stranglehold perpetrated by ours.
They don't ask for our help because we are incapable of helping, as all the world knows. Look to the U.S.S.R., look to the construction of Israel, to the reconstitution of central Europe in the mid-20th century, Vietnam, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Tibet, Korea - everywhere we go we cause nothing but massive problems by imposing our narrow-minded, blissfully myopic views of society and the "right" way of life on the rest of the world.
The issue is that in an ideal world education would be univeralized in funding (everyone contributes) and localized in style and curriculum. But as we can't achieve that at the moment, people actually wish to come to the U.S. to receive a strong education. It's not their fault that immigration is a long, difficult, and sometimes all-but-impossible process. We have our marvelously conservative central government to thank for that. So the question isn't how to treat illegal aliens, it's how to make it so that anyone who wants to entire the United States can do so - for a "free" country we have an awful lot of regulations concerning not only what we can and can't do, but who can and can't be a part of the family. Being born in one country or another should not have any effect on how you are treated - as novel a concept as that may be to your counter-humanitarian way of thinking.
Why bother striving to create the ideal system of education of government or society if you and your friends are the only ones who can use it? Elitism is the problem, not the solution.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
09 May 2005
As a middle school teacher, I support the DREAM ACT along with the National Teacher’s Association and believe it is a wonderful piece of legislation that is long overdo. Each year, we let some 50,000 high school graduates – many at the top of their academic class – look ahead to a future of unrealized potential at a significant cost to our economy and our country. These 50,000 students who were brought into this country as minor children without proper immigration standing are ineligible for in-state college tuition. These students have been productive and active members of their community. However, most cannot even attend community college because federal law effectively prohibits them from paying in-state tuition for college. These students deserve a chance for the American Dream that we have been promising them since Kindergarten. They deserve a path towards citizenship and the ability to continue their education. Anything less is not only a detriment to them but to this country.
It sounds even better with Doris Day singing along with the violin.
10 May 2005
"The fact that Mexico's government is corrupt is a very complex issue, and we are in large part responsible for it. We stole their land (just as we stole the rest of the land we claim to "own"), we have tried interfering in their local and national government structures since the beginning of the 19th century."

PARDON ME? We stole WHAT?

Last time I consolted my memory banks on the history of Mexico, I believe that Spain came over and plundered the native civilizations of the Aztecs, the Incas, as well as the many areas in South Americas which were already in a high state of civilization. The American conquest of the West was pale by comparison.

It is obvious to me that you, Andrew, are of the younger persuasion, unemployed and perhaps a student. When you own property or a business, or you have children in school (or children at all for that matter), these issues change shape dramatically.

Its very simple: more people support protecting America FOR Americans of all ethnic backgrounds and races. I just love the way the illegals try to spin this into a race issue when the going gets tough. Immature "ideal world" lore is very popular among the young and unemployed. Please explain why illegal Mexicans do nothing about "Civil Rights" and driver licenses, and school funding for children IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES? What kind of cojones does it take for somebody to illegally enter this country, have children, drive without insurance or a license, then PROTEST for non-existent rights?

The only thing worse than our illegal problem, is a President who doesnt have the balls to force our Border Patrol to do their jobs. I love you, W, but you gotta plug the leak between Mexico and the US. Allopw those who are honest enough to go through the LEGAL immigration process like the thousands of others who do each year.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
10 May 2005
^^^
"dude when you get a job you'll realize we didn't really steal anyone's land"

wtf?
I couldnt let this go by (violins still playing)
10 May 2005
"They don't ask for our help because we are incapable of helping, as all the world knows. Look to the U.S.S.R., look to the construction of Israel, to the reconstitution of central Europe in the mid-20th century, Vietnam, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Tibet, Korea - everywhere we go we cause nothing but massive problems by imposing our narrow-minded, blissfully myopic views of society and the "right" way of life on the rest of the world."

WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?

"They don't ask for our help because we are incapable of helping, as all the world knows" (DID HE ACTUALLY SAY THAT?)

The United States is the most benevolent, generous nation ever to exist in the History of Man. The liberal media would have you believe exactly what you believe...that the US is the Big Bad Wolf huffing and puffing at the door of every Third World nation to blow them down. GET REAL.

The United States helped rebuild the cities of its defeated enemies, has given BILLIONS away in aid to hundreds of nations (including Mexico), and is currently host to MILLIONS of illegal aliens sapping our public assistance programs and school systems. All the while, those ilklegal invaders seek to undermine our government to turn its direction towards THEIR agenda.

Why dont you do a little reading and find out what Mexico's policy on illegal immigrants from Guatemala and Ecuador and Uruguay are. Ill save you the trouble: http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/back702.html

Perhaps if they practiced what they preached, those violins wouldnt sound so out of tune.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
10 May 2005
Regarding comments on the Mexican War. When the United States went to war with Mexico, we went with an army vastly inferior to that of Mexico. The Mexican Army was superior to the United States Army in terms of numbers equipment and training. Although mostly conscripts, the Mexicans were outstanding soldiers. The United States in contrast had a very small standing Army. U.S. troops consisted mostly of untrained militia. The United States went to war with Mexico primarily to prevent a land deal and military alliance between Great Britain and Mexico. Great Britain was to purchase California from Mexico thereby giving them a military foothold to the North, the West and South of the United States from which they could launch an invasion to re-claim their lost colonies which had the raw materials needed to fuel Great Britain's industrial revolution. Far from being a land grab, the Mexican War was a pre-emptive effort to prevent a disasterous alliance between Great Britain and Mexico. The United States prevailed in the Mexican war only through the military innocativeness of its West Point officers and infighting amongst the military leaders of the Mexican army which resulted in poorly coordinated attack plans and more importantly, poorly coordinated defense plans.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
10 May 2005
Sofiushka blames United States policy in Latin America for the illegal entry of Latin Americans into the United States. Does anyone else find it strange that they would want to come to the United States after the United States supported repressive governments in their countries? If I were from one of the countries that she listed, I would go to Canada. As a Socialist country, Canada is far more tolerant of redistributing the wealth of its citizens to those who enter their country illegally.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
10 May 2005
American Taxpayer said:
"It is obvious to me that you, Andrew, are of the younger persuasion, unemployed and perhaps a student. When you own property or a business, or you have children in school (or children at all for that matter), these issues change shape dramatically."

Well I'm not of the younger persuation, I have two children in public schools and a wife in a state college and pay a fair chunk of my income in taxes.

I'd love to see this pass. I'd love to see immigration become easy and legal. Peeple should be at least as free as trade.

If unenlightened self interest is all you understand remember it's these immigrant's taxes who'll be paying your social security, look at the figures. Birth rates aren't high enough to sustain that...
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
10 May 2005
Jon. Immigration is legal. I don't know what you mean by free. The problem is that certain people choos to take the illegal route into the country. I am in favor of immigration. I am not in favor however of allowing criminals or those who do not respect our laws into this country. Those who come into the country without going through the proper legal channels or who over stay their visas are defacto criminals and obviously do not respect our laws.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
10 May 2005
Free as in without restriction. Liberty that sort of free.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
10 May 2005
It's practically and economically impossible unless you have one world government and economy. Liberty has restrictions...they're called laws.
Cmon, Jon.
10 May 2005
"Free as in without restriction. Liberty that sort of free."

Lets be realistic here. Face it, nobody is sneaking into Mexico in the middle of the night, or stealing small boats from docks in Florida to make their way to Cuba or Haiti, are they? The reason is because those countries are rife with corruption and a collective lack of a DESIRE for freedom and wealth. Mexico's culture is heavily influenced by Catholic dogma, and as a result are submissive and obedient to the Status Quo. Overpopulation, lack of support for birth control and abortion, and apathy for reform.

There are enough people in Mexico to support a revolution, or to simply vote people out who do not improve living conditions. The best example of how to do this happens to be its next-door neighbor. What do they do? Ignore their own mess, and try to import it into the United States ILLEGALLY. They make pre-meditated choices to have their children here, they run clandestine document forgery rings, they attempt to get legislation passed to legitimize their illegal status, and they protest for rights they do not have.

There is a LEGAL process to immigrate to the United States. It has been in place for more than 100 years. All they have to do is to use it.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
10 May 2005
American Taxpayer and his friends here should try being a poor farmer in Mexico who has lost his land because of "free-trade" policies imposed by the USA, NAFTA, WTO etc. You than go and try to get into the USA legally...this is impossible (for one you have to be literate Spanish and fluent in English, and in case you don’t know, that is a very privileges thing.) The "choice” facing the farmer is "illegally" go to the US or starve with his family.

The truth is you have ZERO idea what the circumstances and situation are of the people risking their lives to enter the USA, you have ZERO idea what the reality of the US immigration polices entail as seen by someone on the other side.

So before you spout off with your huge generalizations about what Mexico is like I suggest you live there in poverty working in solidarity with people for a few years, than come back and we might listen. Otherwise all you are doing is spewing your privileged ideological bigotry and proving your ignorance.

“Never judge a man until you walked a mile in his shoes.”

Below is some detailed information about the effects of the WTO, and NAFTA on farmers in Mexico that has lead to a rise in immigration, but I fear it will fall on deaf ears. Nonetheless here they are:

http://citizen.org/trade/nafta/
http://citizen.org/trade/wto/
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
10 May 2005
Sid,

We very nearly have one world economy which is itself nearly one world government, but perhaps that's a wider debate.

I made the assertion that people should be at least as free as trade. We have various free trade agreements with most of the nations these economic refugees are coming from. It is far easier from a legal perspective for an american corporation to pickup and move operations south to take advantage of the lack of regulation and poverty wages than it is for a citizen of one of those countries to pickup and move to the United States to take advantage of the higher standard of living.

My personal politics may go beyond this point, but I really can't see how freedom of movement to this level is debatable. If we have a free trade agreement we should have a free movement agreement.

Where as the states cannot decide matters of international trade and immigration, I support their right and moral duty to redress the results of these failed policies to the extent they can, if we were addressing a federal issue I'd argue more directly to cange the causes. This issue is definately not going to get at root causes, but it can do good.
Oh well. The violins begin anew.
10 May 2005
"American Taxpayer and his friends here should try being a poor farmer in Mexico who has lost his land because of "free-trade" policies imposed by the USA, NAFTA, WTO etc. You than go and try to get into the USA legally...this is impossible (for one you have to be literate Spanish and fluent in English, and in case you don’t know, that is a very privileges thing.) The "choice” facing the farmer is "illegally" go to the US or starve with his family."

IMPOSED? Uh, nobody imposed NAFTA on its members. They all had to vote on it. Nowhere in the NAFTA Agreement is there a clause which takes land away from its owners. Nothing prevents this farmer from going to school (in his own country), and is this farmer has more than two children....lets say about 6?, then nothing prevents him from thinking about contraception.

What GALL. How dare they blame us for their lack of common sense. So they want to emigrate to the US? Then go through the f'ing LEGAL process. Dont jump the fence and risk dying in the desert or being run over on the 5 freeway.

"The truth is you have ZERO idea what the circumstances and situation are of the people risking their lives to enter the USA, you have ZERO idea what the reality of the US immigration polices entail as seen by someone on the other side."

That's exactly right. I have absolutely NO idea, nor do I want to. I had the common sense to go to school, use contraception, and follow the laws of my country. I will NEVER have to know.

"So before you spout off with your huge generalizations about what Mexico is like I suggest you live there in poverty working in solidarity with people for a few years, than come back and we might listen. Otherwise all you are doing is spewing your privileged ideological bigotry and proving your ignorance."

Whatever. Its very simple: entering the United States illegally is a crime punishable by deportation, imprisonment (if carrying contraband), or both. I prefer to fully support the homeless American Citizen living under the freeway overpass rather than the illegal family of 12 who came here illegally.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
10 May 2005
"That's exactly right. I have absolutely NO idea, nor do I want to. I had the common sense to go to school, use contraception, and follow the laws of my country. I will NEVER have to know."

Because you had the luck to be born in an affluent country you need neither strength nor courage, enjoy your complacency
Dont assume anything. Ask first.
11 May 2005
"Because you had the luck to be born in an affluent country you need neither strength nor courage, enjoy your complacency"

Dont go there. I am a veteran of the USMC, and I have a graduate degree from college which I helped pay for. I served four years active duty, and was honorably discharged. Then I became a hard working American, and I want to enjoy the fruits of my "complacency". What the hell is wrong with that? Isnt the illegal Mexican jumping the fence to look for the kind of lives we live here? So, you would have us all feel guilty because we like to live comfortably?

You dont have a clue. Americans pay taxes which support the American Lifestyle. Those of us who WORK, feel the pain of having to give significant portions of our earnings away to government programs to support....ILLEGAL ALIENS? And their children too?

Sorry, that was the noise of the violin being smashed over the head of its player.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
11 May 2005
I just married an immigrant. We paid our dues and followed the legal procedures for this country. With the Patriot Act and the so-called "War on Terror", the price of legal immigration had gone through the roof! We would literally go in and pay one set of fees, receive the paperwork for the next round.... and when we would arrive for that set of filing the price would have risen by a huge amount. One time it was an $80 difference. One time it was a $300 difference. Our original budget for our marriage was over $800 more expensive than we had originally expected - and that's not counting our lawyers fees!

Also, my husband could not legally work in the states for the first 3 months that he was married to me. No work. Period. He had to quit the job that he had been at for over 2 years for this process. They also had to have a member of my family legally accept financial responsibility for him for the next 10 years. Any health problems, financial issues or debts, or illegal acts that he might concieve of doing are our responsibility.

That's some pretty hefty rules and regulations for a simple marriage visa. We aren't a wealthy family and we had to save for almost a year to be able to fulfill the finaicial requirements for our marriage - on a typicalyl average american income. We have several other friends from overseas and they have terrible issues with their visas. The Patriot Act has changed and rearranged the immigration process to much that most of them are worried sick about work authorizations, background checks, and visa reapplications. The lawyers are making a pretty penny at their expense.

And even big industry leaders like Bill Gates have called for simplification of the immigration process. There are so many skilled and telented folks that we employ in this country who are from other places - our industry, tourism, trade and general economics are all hurting in part because of this common cause.

And really, regardless of their "legal" or "illegal" status, if these folks, and especially their children, have been contributing to our system as legitimately as they possibly can without the privledge of a visa - we at least owe them enough respect to treat them like fellow human beings as we try to solve the problems caused by our beurocratic money grubbing administrators.

America has alot of things that it offers - the american dream includes making enough money to get by with your family, to provide a safe haven from oppression and tyranny, and the freedom to live and learn and work in a supportive community. That whole "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" thang. It's inevitable that folks will want to come here to take advantage of the system that U.S. Citizens have been taking advantage of for centuries now...

Lastly, if there weren't jobs and opportunities for illegals, then we wouldn't have a problem. Obviously, there is a place in our cultural and economic system that needs the services that they provide - why can't we fix the system to help illegals do what they have already proven they want to and can do for the system?!
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
11 May 2005
we have an overpopulation problem on this planet. there's over 6 billion of us already?! why the frick wouldn't people want to move someplace where the land is cheap, the water isn't polluted, the schools have desks and every house is wired for cable?

oh yeah, people who live in those countries whose oppressive military regimes are backed by our government, while their economic resources are being squandered by our governments corporations, while their environment is being polluted by our we-could-care-less trade agreements?

illegal immigrants and their children aren't the problem! industry fed politicians and the financial backers who help stir up controversy about "illegals" instead of more important problems like "we're running out of oil and other non-renewable energy sources"?!?!
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
11 May 2005
One day, people of color are going to rise up, and throw that White Supremacist rabble ruling this Country down a river.

Power to all the disenfanchised !!
What a presumptuous statement.
11 May 2005
"One day, people of color are going to rise up, and throw that White Supremacist rabble ruling this Country down a river.

Power to all the disenfanchised !! "

Fuhghetaboutit. I am a man of color myself, and I am a Republican. I am as conservative as "Da Man", but Im not a "Tom" or a "sellout". I am a hard working American Taxpayer who has paid his dues, and now lives a somewhat preiviligrd lifestyle because I WORKED for it.

The people of color who are going to "rise up" are rising up every day. When the disenfranchised become empowered, they become...well...NOT disenfranchised. Then, they turn and protect their gains by supporting more fiscally conservative issues which help to reinforce those next few "rising up". It has nothing to do with color, and everything to do with knowledge. What did you expect....that everything is going to happen at once? Do you think that suddenly, one gray day, that the dark clouds would part to let the Sun shine down upon the downtrodden and that they would magically "rise up" to overthrow this perceived Oppressor?

Americans for America. Wanna be American? Then start acting like one. Make it legit by going through the LEGAL immigration channels.
I thought that violin was smashed! Here we go again.
11 May 2005
"And really, regardless of their "legal" or "illegal" status, if these folks, and especially their children, have been contributing to our system as legitimately as they possibly can without the privledge of a visa - we at least owe them enough respect to treat them like fellow human beings as we try to solve the problems caused by our beurocratic money grubbing administrators."

Hmm. So then you feel that allowing these children to complete TWELVE YEARS of school, paid for by American tax dollars (despite having illegal citizenship status), being allowed to work in American companies or fields or homes for pennies, and then crowding our public hospitals to the point of turn-away and STILL not deporting them or throttling the entry of thousands more is being inhuman?

I wonder how much it costs per child to send them through 12 years of public school. I wonder if the parents of those children even bother to gain legal citizenship during those 12 years. I wonder how many of those parents drive their children to school without a driver license or insurance to cover damages to an American's car in case of an accident.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. America is not the Free Meat line.
Svea, I support you 100%, and Congratulations!
11 May 2005
I apologize for my earlier comments...I hadnt fully read your message above. I have a lot of respect for someone like yourself who actually followed the rules. Granted, there are always "hidden fees" levied against the would-be American Citizen. Its not just an American phenomenon either.

The fact is that you managed to facilitate your marriage and the legal immigration process by whatever means were necessary. Why? Because American Citizenship was obviously very important to you as a couple. Am I getting this right? That 2 year hurdle your husband had to endure without work had to have been frustrating. But that was then, and things are better, right?

When your husband has won his full citizenship, he will come to resent the illegals who simply jump the fence (many are pregnant women), then form groups and protest for "rights" they dont have. He will truly recognize what being an American Citizen means.

Its not supposed to be easy.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
11 May 2005
Mr Tax Payer,

I'm glad to see you've pulled your self up by your bootstraps as it were, but why then must you insist it be just as difficult or more so for everyone else on the way up?

I'm also continually baffed by you supposition that illegals are some how lazy, and if they could just work harder or be patient then they could be here legally. The amuount of waiting, work, danger, and money it takes for many of these peole to make the trip and the back breaking, poor paying, dangerous work they often take once they're here seem to disprove that assertion.

Now why would someone do that? It's better than where they are and legal means are closed to them. Svea situation as she admits is a comaparitively priveleged situation. I know Canadiens who are here illegally that are in a similar situation, I don't want to minimize that it's hard and expensive, and eternally frustrating, but it doesn't really compare to people struggling for survival.

I do make some assumptions above about Svea's situation and I appologize if I'm off the mark, but having a family full of american citizens of average means to help is itself quite an advantage.

Now explain to me why it shouldn't be easy?
This is a non-issue.
11 May 2005
"I'm also continually baffed by you supposition that illegals are some how lazy, and if they could just work harder or be patient then they could be here legally. The amuount of waiting, work, danger, and money it takes for many of these peole to make the trip and the back breaking, poor paying, dangerous work they often take once they're here seem to disprove that assertion."

I never said they were lazy. I said that they were ILLEGAL. Becoming an American Citizen is not supposed to be easy...or even guaranteed, for that matter. One of the criteria is wether or not the potential citizen will be a productive member of our society. Having an education is a plus. Being able to speak English is another. Not having a criminal record is yet another. People attempting to circumvent the legal process prevent the government from properly screening applicants.

Illegal immigration is just that....ILLEGAL. Citizenship requires long waits, screening, and some of the issues as stated by Svea. If they REALLY want citizenship, the legal path is the only one to take.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
11 May 2005
I am too an illegal immigrant here studying to get a degree. I would like to participate in any activies that any of your organizations present. I am Asian but I don't think that makes any difference, so please give me any details on anything that I can help with
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
11 May 2005
Dear American Taxpayer,

I´m a legal immigrant to this country, a member of an ethnic minority, I work, I pay my taxes, and some day I hope to be a citizen of this country.

You seem like a reasonable person. Let´s talk about this in reasonable terms.

If I understand you correctly, you have worked hard to get where you are, and now that you are finally there, it´s hard for you to understand why anyone should receive anything for free. I somewhat share your concerns, but not entirely.

It also upsets me that people take advantage of the things that this country offers. It upsets me because I also pay my taxes.

However, I would claim that illegals are not really the people that take advantage of the things this country has to offer. I would claim the opposite. I would claim that it is the US that takes advantage of illegals and in returns, it offers them almost nothing, except maybe a high school education for their kids, which without a permit to work, or to get a college education, doesn´t amount to much.

So far in this forum noone seem to have talked about the five hundred pound gorilla in the room. Well, here it is: The reason there are so many illegals in this country, I would claim, is simply because the US government ALLOWS THEM to come in (by underfunding the agencies that are supposedly in charge of stopping that immigration).

For many years, many conservatives have asked that illegal immigration from our souther border be stopped. But this has not happened, for one simple reason, because the government (both Republican and Democrats) does not want it to stop. And if you think about this for a few minutes, you will realize that stopping it is not a real possibility, not because it is physically impossible to do it, we know it is definitely possible, but because the political will to do it is not there.

If the government really stopped illegal immigration, the agricultural economy of this country would collapse overnight. Do you know ANY citizen or resident of the US who will pick tomatoes, corn, cotton, etc. for 1 or 2 or 3 dollars an hour without ANY benefits? I´m sure you don´t know many (if any). However, there are plenty of people in Mexico, who earn 1 or 2 dollars A DAY, who are more than happy to do it.

So there you have it, ILLEGALS are here, because WE LET THEM IN.

Given that WE LET THEM IN, shouldn´t we at least give them a few of the very basic rights (NOTICE, I´m not saying BENEFITs, I´m saying RIGHTS) that citizens of this country have come to expect? Like a right to have a college education if one can find someone to pay for it? Like a right to a lawyer if one is accused of a crime? Like a right to work for a decent salary?

Consider the plight of illegals in this country for a minute. Illegals don´t have access to state or federally funded health care. Illegal pregnante women don´t have easy access to regular check ups (without the fear of being deported) and, thanks to the republican leadership, illegal women have less and less access to methods of birth/population control, which you seem to be very worried about. They don´t have access to subsidized housing, or subsidized water or electricity, or food stamps for that matter. They don´t even have a right to and attorney (they simply get deported). Etc. Etc. Etc. All the privileges that you and I take for granted, they do not exist for Illegals. Thus, W´s proposal to legalize (even if temporarily) illegals that are doing migrant work in the US is a very humane proposal. We´ll see if it actually comes to pass (if W ever really puts it on the table, which I very much doubt).

Under this light, the DREAM act and the proposals that the author talks about in the article above may seem a little more humane to you. Or do they?

Sincerely yours,

Another American Taxpayer
BRAVO! I commend you for your respect and diligence.
11 May 2005
Thank you for your clarity of vision. I wish more American-born citizens would open their eyes to their birthright and realize what a privilege it is to be an American Citizem (by birth or otherwise). There is a REASON why people flock in from all over the world to get in here.

You said:

"However, I would claim that illegals are not really the people that take advantage of the things this country has to offer. I would claim the opposite. I would claim that it is the US that takes advantage of illegals and in returns, it offers them almost nothing, except maybe a high school education for their kids, which without a permit to work, or to get a college education, doesn´t amount to much."

Yes, I agree that the illegals are "taken advantage of". Why not? The government does nothing to stop them from coming here, then unscrupulous employers put them in the fields or in their homes and pay them pennies. I would say that their fate as American illegals is better than say, an illegal immigrant entering Mexico from Guatemala. They arent supposed to have anything offered to them when they get here. They should be glad that the laws already in place arent enforced more rigorously. Evidently, their "oppressed life and sub-minimum wage jobs" are good enough for them. They always have the option of going back home, or attempting LEGAL immigration as you did.

about this:

"except maybe a high school education for their kids, which without a permit to work, or to get a college education, doesn´t amount to much".

Uh, Im afraid it amounts to quite a bit. It costs the American taxpayers BILLIONS. Here are figures for Los Angeles County alone: http://www.losangelesalmanac.com/topics/Education/ed04n.htm

11,837,669,369....HOLY $@#%!

But this statement made my skin crawl:

"Given that WE LET THEM IN, shouldn´t we at least give them a few of the very basic rights (NOTICE, I´m not saying BENEFITs, I´m saying RIGHTS) that citizens of this country have come to expect? Like a right to have a college education if one can find someone to pay for it? Like a right to a lawyer if one is accused of a crime? Like a right to work for a decent salary?"

NO! They should be given NO rights whatsoever. They are criminals, by definition and by Law. What about MY rights? I have the right to live in a country which protects its citizens from potential terrorists and from illegal entry. Our colleges were built to serve AMERICANS. Fortunately, tuition costs and diligent College boards realize that the class size issue would become a problem on the college level if illegals were allowed to attend. Work permits? A decent salary? You want us to PAY those criminals? What kind of message does that send to those waiting their chance to jump the fence.

This is a non issue. Illegals are criminals, and they should NOT be rewarded for their crimes by allowing them to go to our colleges, use our public services, take our jobs or ANYTHING at all. I even resent the fact that they are FLOWN home for deportation. They dont give a crap anout Americans, they are out to serve themselves and their selfish needs.

I am glad that conscientious people like yourself have decided to take the legal path. I stand with you as a fellow American Citizen....with my back to the illegals.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
12 May 2005
this american taxpayer and sole source of income for a family of four would much rather spend my tax dollars making the imigration process simple enough that honest working people could get here leagally and on the social sevices to support them than on all the rediculous to downright dangerous thing the government is currently doing with my money.

If your problem with illegals is that they're illegal, do you have an agrument against simplifying the process of legal imigration? If it's because we can't afford it, that's only becasue we waste so very much on special interest projects for large corporations
Re: BRAVO! I commend you for your respect and diligence.
12 May 2005
American Taxpayer wrote: NO! They should be given NO rights whatsoever. They are criminals, by definition and by Law.

Illegal Immigrants sir are not criminals. They don't have a legal immigration status yes, but they have commited no crime.

Here is what George W. Bush had to say about it on Jan 7, 2004:
“Out of common sense and fairness, our laws should allow willing workers to enter our country and fill jobs that Americans are not filling ... As a nation that values immigrants and depends on immigrants, we should have immigration laws that work and make us proud. ... Yet today we do not. Instead we see many employers turning to the illegal labor market. We see millions of hard-working men and women condemned to fear and insecurity in a massive undocumented economy. ... Decent, hard-working people will now be protected by labor laws with the right to change jobs, earn fair wages and enjoy the same working conditions that the law requires for American workers”

American Taxpayer on the other hand wrote:
"Yes, I agree that the illegals are "taken advantage of". Why not? The government does nothing to stop them from coming here, then unscrupulous employers put them in the fields or in their homes and pay them pennies."

Why NOT you ask? What you seem to want mr. American Taxpayer (should change your nickname to American Biggot) is a return to the time of slavery. And you say you are not a Tom or a Sellout? You seem to have forgotten what people like Martin Luther King or Rosa Parks did to fight for the rights of people who only a few decades ago were being treated in exactly the same way that illegal immigrants are treated now.

You sir are a disgrace to the Conservative cause. You may be proud of calling yourself a Republican, but I am sure not many Republicans would be proud to count you among their peers. So much for the "Culture of Life". So much for "Compassionate Conservatism".

And please do not stand with me. You are the kind of American that sometimes makes me think that I should NOT become a citizen. Become a citizen of what, of a country of heartless people?

I have nothing to do with you. I believe in the worthiness of people because they are people, not because they are black or white or brown or citizens or legal or illegal immigrants. They are all people, they all have families, they all are trying to feed their children, they are all trying to educate their children.

You on the other hand, seem to think that you are worthy only because you have worked for it and because you were lucky enough to have been born at a time when you can call yourself a free man. It's too bad you were not born 200 years ago, I would have loved to observe where your hard work would have gotten you...

Happy dreams...
"Illegal Immigrants sir are not criminals. They don't have a legal immigration status yes, but they have commited no crime."
12 May 2005
You actually typed that statement?

Illegally entering this country is a CRIME: Laws: Cases and Codes : U.S. Code : TITLE 8.

Upon that crime being committed, there are the local trespassing laws of wherever the entry point was, there is the crime of premiditating this crime, and there are crimes upon crimes committed while seeking work illegally, driving vehicles without a license or insurance.

WAKE UP, and put the bottle down.

"Why NOT you ask? What you seem to want mr. American Taxpayer (should change your nickname to American Biggot) is a return to the time of slavery. And you say you are not a Tom or a Sellout? You seem to have forgotten what people like Martin Luther King or Rosa Parks did to fight for the rights of people who only a few decades ago were being treated in exactly the same way that illegal immigrants are treated now."

Dont even try that one. Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks were AMERICAN CITIZENS, fighting for rights they are entitled to AS citizens by the Constitution of the United States. Not only that, the slaves were BROUGHT here because they were wanted (for whateve reasons). I dont see anyone kidnapping people and bringing them here from Mexico, Cuba, or Haiti. Nobody WANTS the illegals here....except greedy farmers or wealthy business owners who want to use them as cheap labor. Even so, they certainly arent helping them come here,. They are simply hiring those who are already here.

But get this right: ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS A CRIME. Illegal immigrants are, by definition, CRIMINALS.

I retract my comment about commending you for following the legal channel. Might I suggest that you go back to your country of origin and contemplate WHY you want to become a citizen here? I believe that is one of the questions on the application.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
12 May 2005
I agree with American Taxpayer. Illegal immigration is a crime (the term illegal is a givaway here) ergo, illegal immigrants are criminals by definition plain and simple. As criminals, they should be arrested, fined and deported. Why is this so tough foir people to understand?
No, I think it should be left as it is. Perhaps tightened.
12 May 2005
"If your problem with illegals is that they're illegal, do you have an agrument against simplifying the process of legal imigration? If it's because we can't afford it, that's only becasue we waste so very much on special interest projects for large corporations "

The process of immigration is already simple. It is just time consuming (as Svea stated earlier). All industrialized nations have immigration laws, and for good reason. Try to get citizenship in Germany or Norway (as an immigrant from America), and you will find yourself waiting for about 10 years. In the interim, you will have to prove your worthiness to those nations by avoiding criminal behavior, working a regular job, and refraining from impacting the Public Services programs. This is true in the UK, France, Germany, Italy, and all of the industrialized nations.

Wanna see the result of "free and unrestricted" immigration? Look to any Third World country. You can pretty much walk right in.
THIS issue isn't about CRIMINAL illegals
12 May 2005
I think we need to get one thing straight.

The issue here is about immingrants without legal status but NOT about ones who have committed any crime by their having entered the country illegally.

You DID see that this girl was five years old when she was brought into the country, yes? Depending upon your politics you may or may not consider her parents criminally responsible for having immigrated illegally (I'm not interested in dscussing that). But is ANYBODY willing to say that a five year old bears any criminal responsibility?

That makes this a tragic situation and not one so easy to decide in terms of immigration laws. It is perfectly natural for her to consider herself as an American;she knows no other life.

Might I humbly make a suggestion? How about a simple change in our immigration laws to allow application from persons whose status in the country is as "illegals" but who would NOT be held criminally responsible for that fact. As things stand now, having entered the country illegally blocks somebody from a future applciation to enter legally. That does not seem to fit situations like this and it does not seem right (to me) to hold it against a five year old that she was brought into the country illegally.

The matter of whether one is considered "out of state" or a resident of the state for purposes of college tuition is another matter entirely. This does NOT seem to me to be a place where the Federal government has any business. Seems to be a matter that should be determined upon a state level decision. Of course the Federal government is usually able to bring to bear enormous pressure on a decision which is still technically left up to the state << like the state gets no Federal money if ti doesn't follow this "legal status required for residency" regulation >>
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
12 May 2005
Okay. If "there is no such thing as an illegal", does that mean that I, as an American, can illegally emigrate to a country like Canada or Sweden and expect free health care?

Better yet, let's say I fly somewhere like Venezuela. Would it be okay if I consumed public health care resources paid for by the locals?

If not, please explain to why.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
12 May 2005
...sure you could, in reality, hell if I know, not sure what the point of that question is.

If you're trying to make a life there, have a residence etc... then I'd fight for your right to health care. If you're an "illegal tourist" or something lwith a permanent legal residence in another country then no I wouldn't.

Is that what you're looking for?
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
13 May 2005
I agree with LEGAL immigrant. Illegals are allowed into this country by an underfunded immigration and naturalization admin... and then taken advantage of by U.S. businesses that need their labor for jobs that many americans consider to be beneath them.

It's not a "crime" per se because the most common punishment of an illegal is... deportation. They don't experience jail time or hard labor or fines - at least not as far as I know. While they are in this country, one might argue that their lack of access to public health care, social services or education is the price they pay for access... But then again, I'm pretty low on the income bracket and I don't get free health care, social services, and very very little financial help with education.

Also, are American Taxpayer, American Taxpayer KSBM, and Arthur KOTB the same person? Your name/s look awfully similar? Why are you posting under different names when you're talking about the same thing?
American Taxpayer, American Taxpayer KSBM are the same person....me. Im not Arthur KOTB
13 May 2005
"It's not a "crime" per se because the most common punishment of an illegal is... deportation. They don't experience jail time or hard labor or fines - at least not as far as I know. While they are in this country, one might argue that their lack of access to public health care, social services or education is the price they pay for access... But then again, I'm pretty low on the income bracket and I don't get free health care, social services, and very very little financial help with education."

The lead article is about the 16 year old girl who discovers she is an illegal because her parents did not tell her. There is blame to place, but not on the College system. She should blame her parents for her plight. Its THEIR fault. I feel a little something for her problem, but the reality is that she can apply for citizenship and probably get it. She speaks English, has successfully completed K-12, and probable has not gotten into any criminal behavior. Go for it.

However, anyone here who is not clear on the FACT that illegal immigration is a crime (irregardless of the punishments), needs to get it loud and clear ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS A CRIME. People who do it are CRIMINALS. There is no way to see it in any other way. It is a crime.
Bill could grant legality to 10 million immigrants
13 May 2005
From yesterday's news:

Bill could grant legality to 10 million immigrants
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20050512-9999-1n12immi

This is what Arizona Republicans Jeff Flake had to say about it according to the article: ""The bottom line is we're going to have a need for foreign workers in the foreseeable future, ... We can make it legal through some mechanism or we can keep it illegal and keep on pretending we are going to enforce it."

According to the National Review, "the McCain/Kennedy bill (called the Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act) has a good deal of muscle behind it, and in any case is the only amnesty-guestworker bill that will have a significant coalition pushing it. Yesterday’s press conference included not only senators McCain and Kennedy, but also Brownback and Lieberman, plus Republican representatives Flake and Kolbe from Arizona, and Illinois Democrat Gutierrez. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce backed it, as did the National Restaurant Association, the Service Employees International Union, the American Immigration Lawyers Association, the National Immigration Forum, as well as writer Tamar Jacoby."

It seems that the group of Americans that feel that Illegal Immigrants deserve a piece of the American Dream and be allowed to become temporary workers, with the possibility of eventually become residents and citizens, is growing larger and larger. It's not surprising. After all, this IS a country of immigrants. Whether they entered the country legally or illegaly it's irrelevant. They are still IMMIGRANTS and they are here to stay, whether you like it or not. Might as well get used to it.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
13 May 2005
"If you're trying to make a life there, have a residence etc... then I'd fight for your right to health care. If you're an "illegal tourist" or something lwith a permanent legal residence in another country then no I wouldn't."

To make it realistic, let's say that I'm rich and decide to retire to Venezuela because they have socialized health care. If I enter illegally (meaning that I won't be subject to local taxes), are Venezuelans still entitled to pay for my health care? What if I refused to learn Spanish or assimilate into the local culture?

If there's "no such thing as an illegal", that means even a rich, white American has the right to "become" a Venezuelan at any time, just by moving there. I don't think that's fair.

This actually occurs in Mexico. A lot of American retirees move to Baja California (as legal residents, mind you). Mexico forbids them citizenship and from owning property.

That is probably fair, since these people never contributed anything to the Mexican economy and have no interest in integrating into Mexican culture.

Obviously, there are big differences with illegal immigrants in the US. But, it's naive to simply claim that "there's no such thing as an illegal".
LEGAL immigrant....dont be so naive
13 May 2005
" After all, this IS a country of immigrants. Whether they entered the country legally or illegaly it's irrelevant. They are still IMMIGRANTS and they are here to stay, whether you like it or not. Might as well get used to it. "

HAHA. I wonder how many of the thousands of deportees had that same thought in their minds when their asses got shipped back to wherever they came from.

"Whether they entered the country legally or illegaly it's irrelevant."

Uh, Im afraid its quite relevant. Legal immigrants have the rights they are entitled to under the Constitution of the United States. Illegal immigrants do not. Im all for legal immigration, and I am a man of color, so I support this legal immigration from any country and by any racial group.

As soon as someone commits the CRIME of illegal immigration, then I turn into an enemy with a vengeance. How DARE they slap the legal immigrants in the face by trying to circumvent the Law. How would you like it if you purchased a ticket to a play, and you went to your assigned seat only to find that a family of four had crowded into the two seats which had been reserved for YOU? By your flawed logic, you should just smile politely and attempt to find space (yeah right). You have no idea what variables are involved, what the long term effect will be on the rest of the American populace, and you obviously dont give a shit.

"They are still IMMIGRANTS and they are here to stay, whether you like it or not."

As I said, I am all for legal immigrants. I actually WANT them to stay. They represent the best of what their home country has to offer, and by applying for American Citizenship, they demonstrate a willingness to be a productive part of American Society.

As for the illegal criminals trying to call themselves immigrants, they are being deported by the hundreds every day. The ones who have children are finding out that their assumptions that their children will not have to suffer as a result of their criminal entry into the States are dead wrong (read the lead article). California is going to pass a bill which creates its own State Border Patrol agency: http://www.temeculavalleynews.com/story.asp?story_ID=2063

Illegal criminals will be dealt with by the Law of this Land, wether YOU like it or not.
The myth of scarcity
13 May 2005
The analogy to reserved seating at a play is inacurate. There is plenty of space and plenty of wealth to go around here.

A more apt analogy might be that you paid to reserve tickets at an open air concert and found people had crowded in and set up blankets behind orr around the resrved seating.

The legislative proposal referenced above shows there's wide support in the main stream to legitimize a large number of currently illegal workers.

These people are contributing to the US economy, for * me* this is beside the point, but you seem set against them for economic reasons.

As to your horror at people breaking the law, unjust laws should be broken. Most positive social change in the modern world has been made through unjust laws being broken.

The underground railroad was theft, for one example. Look to the works of Gahndi for many more.

I think your in the wrong place to argue that "because it's illegal it must be wrong", you've failed to convince me of any reason *why* it's wrong, though I must comend you on your civility in discourse things often go badly with online debate...
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
13 May 2005
hey there "american taxpayer"-

Since when is it right for priveledge of one group of people to bleed over and STOP the priveledge of another? You were lucky enough to be born in this country you consider so wonderful - does that mean you are somehow a better human being than someone else? Are you therefore smarter, stronger, and more worthy of utilizing basic things like education and an income? Is your genetic material somehow super human, or of better stock? Obviously the law thinks so- but i'm talking about morals here-

what is it about being born a true blue bonefide american citizen that makes you so different from - as you so very quaintly put it- an "illegal"? do you have an extra cerebral cortex or something? a third arm to do more work by? x-ray vision? certainly americans have lots of extra fat, but all accounts- perhaps that entitles us to better educations?

everyone should be able to go to college, get a job, be treated in a decent and equal manner, regardless of "status". isn't the world full enough of illiterate, ignorant people who had no access to information? what purpose does it serve, denying huge swaths of other human beings the "right" to go to school, and earn the money to do so? what possible benefit could it serve? You pay taxes for the good of society (an argueable condition to be sure)- do you WANT to live in a society ridden with the troubles having a huge impoverished, unemplyeed, uneducated, frightened population brings? After all, its cheap goods from the countries these "illegals" are coming from that make your special american life so very convienient. where would you be if someone in your family hadn't had these opportunities? certainly there were more opportunities available to EVERYONE here in the U.S. before this latest rash of xenophobia, combined with ridiculous college costs and mass corportization, took hold-

does it somehow justify your existance to know that you got something someone else didn't? do you hate your job, your business, your property so much thet you begrudge the opportunity to get the same to anyone who wasn't born here? whose parents happened to hit the sack on one side of a border rather than another? did you go to st peter and demand that you be born in the united states- is that why you (or i) should have special priveledges over our neighbors? perhas you will have to lose your job, your business, your property, before you can see both sides of the issue. i know i work my ass off for my money, just like you do- but i know i don't work my ass nearly as hard as a twelve year old in a sweatshop, or a migrant worker, or a meat factory emplyee, or a coal miner-- if my taxes are used to make sure that fewer people have to suffer their lives through such bondage, ANYWHERE, are able to think and reason and read and dream and work towards the things they want to build, then i'll go with less- its worth it to me to live in a a better world, and its my responsibility to give whatever is nessasary to make it happen- regardless of RACE or legal citizenship.

what kind of world do YOU want to live in? do you even know?
Jon, you are right. I liked your analogy better.
13 May 2005
"A more apt analogy might be that you paid to reserve tickets at an open air concert and found people had crowded in and set up blankets behind orr around the resrved seating."

EXCELLENT. That's more like what Im trying to say. Keep in mind that the picture I form in my head from that analogy is one where the "open air concert" has a LIMITED SPACE, and that there are people waiting in the tricket line to purchase what few tickets there are left. Meanwhile, other lowlifes are climbing over the barricades and refusing to pay. Some even bring their friends, family, and when you display your disdain for their actions, they have the GALL to protest their "right" to your space?

I happen to be in a tax bracket which has a disproportionate amount of money taken out for taxes because the Democrat liberals os the past (Carter, Clinton) felt that more money should be taken from the wealthy to give to the poor. In reality, the "poor" included those millions of illegals sapping the public health infrastructure and the school system to near collapse. Where are all of the housing, hospitals, schools and police going to come from? How is it going to be PAID FOR? You got it. The American Taxpayer....because the government isnt in the business of making money. Only spending it.

TO: "another american taxpayer"

"Since when is it right for priveledge of one group of people to bleed over and STOP the priveledge of another? You were lucky enough to be born in this country you consider so wonderful - does that mean you are somehow a better human being than someone else?"

This discussion has nothing to do with morals. It has to do with enforcement of EXISTING laws which are just and fair to American citizens. It is completely right for people to stop the illegal acts of these people who blatantly disregard our borders, our laws, our language and who ignore their only REAL opportunity to become citizens....the LEGAL path.

"Are you therefore smarter, stronger, and more worthy of utilizing basic things like education and an income? Is your genetic material somehow super human, or of better stock? Obviously the law thinks so- but i'm talking about morals here-"

Whose morals? Certainly not mine. I am not a racist or a bigot. I am a man of color, and I am a Republican. I was able to use the American Dream as a goal, and I am well on my way toward it. What's so immoral about that? Part of the American Dream is eliminating the nightmares....like school overcrowding, hospitals which are so crowded with illegals giving birth, or those who have had accidents while illegally driving their cars without a driver license or insurance, or perhaps by the victims of a foreign terrorist from abroad who used the porous border to gain entry into the United States. Your view is so myopic. You just dont see the big picture.

"what is it about being born a true blue bonefide american citizen that makes you so different from - as you so very quaintly put it- an "illegal"? do you have an extra cerebral cortex or something? a third arm to do more work by? x-ray vision? certainly americans have lots of extra fat, but all accounts- perhaps that entitles us to better educations?"

Open the other eye please. To me, the American Citizen who originally came from Russia or Thailand, or China, or Canada, or Timbuktu....and gained LEGAL citizenship by going through the very simple process, is as much an American as I am. That statement pretty much leaves you no room to twist it into something sinister.

"everyone should be able to go to college, get a job, be treated in a decent and equal manner, regardless of "status". isn't the world full enough of illiterate, ignorant people who had no access to information? what purpose does it serve, denying huge swaths of other human beings the "right" to go to school, and earn the money to do so? what possible benefit could it serve? "

Knock Knock, Neo.

There are schools in Mexico. There are colleges and even Cabo San Lucas is in Mexico. There is also OIL in Mexico. Did you know that a review of the Department of Energy’s own figures for 2004 reveals that the United States imports more oil from Canada than from Saudi Arabia. Mexico is our second major supplier and Saudi Arabia and Venezuela tie for third place? What is Mexico doing with its oil and mineral revenues? They have no military to support, and there is no REAL drain on their economy....except themselves. Why is birth control almost non-existent in Mexico? WHY do they think we want to import those values here? We are getting the poorest of the poor, the most desperate of the worst. Despite my personal views on the subject, their illegal entry into the United States is a CRIME, plain and simple.


"You pay taxes for the good of society (an argueable condition to be sure)- do you WANT to live in a society ridden with the troubles having a huge impoverished, unemplyeed, uneducated, frightened population brings? After all, its cheap goods from the countries these "illegals" are coming from that make your special american life so very convienient. where would you be if someone in your family hadn't had these opportunities? certainly there were more opportunities available to EVERYONE here in the U.S. before this latest rash of xenophobia, combined with ridiculous college costs and mass corportization, took hold-"

Okay, from your statements, I have to assume the following (Im pretty good at this):

You are not a college graduate
You make less than 50K a year
You are not married
You do not have children
You are less than 40 years old.

Let me know how I did. For the others here who know that I know what Im talking about, we have to hope that this generation coming up "gets it" before they have squandered to others what so many Americans before them hafe fought so hard to protect.
There is plenty of space and plenty of wealth to go around here.
14 May 2005
There is plenty of space and plenty of wealth to go around here.

So why do I see poor people and homeless people around me in the USA?
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
15 May 2005
illegal immigrants are ILLEGAL and therefore CRIMINALS?
What if another arbitrary law existed (say, to teach an African slave how to read), would you still consider a teacher who didn't discriminate based on race a CRIMINAL? Would you look upon him/her with as much spite as you do at other CRIMINALS? Because that person would have been VIOLATING LAWS. you seem to hold sacred laws which are arbitrary, and based totally on imaginary lines on a map. Its bizarre, and I cannot relate at all.

Martin Luther King fought for human rights, not for nationalistic rights of those who happen to live between two imaginary geographic lines. That is why he spoke out so vehemently on the Vietnam War, condemning it wholeheartedly.

I also don't understand the theory that if you worked really hard and succeeded, that everyone after you should have to work just as hard to do the same things. That goes contrary to all thoughts of progress. Please explain, Uncle Taxpayer...
You cant relate? Let me make it easy for you.
16 May 2005
You said:

"What if another arbitrary law existed (say, to teach an African slave how to read), would you still consider a teacher who didn't discriminate based on race a CRIMINAL? Would you look upon him/her with as much spite as you do at other CRIMINALS? Because that person would have been VIOLATING LAWS. you seem to hold sacred laws which are arbitrary, and based totally on imaginary lines on a map. Its bizarre, and I cannot relate at all."

There WAS such a law forbidding blacks (in America) from reading. There have also been laws forbidding interracial marriage, voting, etc. All of those laws were arbitrary, and applied to pre-Civil War America....BEFORE blacks were made citizens. After that, all blacks were citizens, and the struggle became one in which blacks simple fought for rights they were ENTITLED to under the Constitution of the United States. As much as those illegal cockroaches want to use the Civil Rights struggle to justify their criminal behavior, the circumstances are COMPLETELY different.

Then you said:

"you seem to hold sacred laws which are arbitrary, and based totally on imaginary lines on a map. Its bizarre, and I cannot relate at all."

REALLY? Then why dont those illegal Mexicans stay on THEIR side of those "imaginary lines"? Why is life so different on the other side of those "imaginary lines"? You are a fool. Here is an analogy for you, but I doubt you will be able to relate because you have absolutely NO CLUE.

Scenario:

You own a home in San Diego, California (as if). You have a family of four (your wife or husband, and two children). You come home and find that a poor Mexican family of 10 "looking for a better life" has jumped over your fence and set up camp in your backyard without your permission. Then they urinate in your bushes, shit in your garden, and use your water hose to bathe. What are you gonna do, invite them in and feed them? You can barely afford to support your own family.

Then, one fateful day, you hear a knock at your backdoor. In Spanish, the father of the Mexican family DEMANDS to be allowed into the house, and uses the claim that because they are living on your property, they have the "right" to enjoy all of the priviliges of everything you own.

You immature children flap your lips because you dont know any better. When you have married and have children and own property and can VOTE, revisit this issue with a more mature perspective, and then you might just be able to "relate".
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
16 May 2005
“abuse and neglect”? our home countries break people, you have no right to judge us until you lived in those conditions. My parents had no alternatives, and I know without doubt that this “illegal life” is by leaps and bounds better than being a citizen back in Russia.

I pray every waking moment this bill will be passed. I came here when I was twelve. When I graduated in NJ two years ago I had a 3.62 GPA, 1210 on SAT, numerous awards and some 12 AP credits. And for what? My parents can’t pay out of state tuition.

Tax payers are suffering you say? Don’t be so quick to run your mouth if you don’t know what illegals live like. I and my parents have tax ids. Which means we work and PAY PAY PAY taxes, same ones you do.

Plus, if you didn’t read properly you should, because the Dream Act will give me a chance to become a resident and eventually a citizen, thus I will too pay taxes.

My sister is entering High School soon, how much would I give to let her have what other kids take for granted, she is just as smart if not smarter than me. She too will get numerous awards. She hardly speaks any Russian, been here since elementary. Is it fair to send her back?
What are these fools thinking? I missed this statement.
16 May 2005
"I also don't understand the theory that if you worked really hard and succeeded, that everyone after you should have to work just as hard to do the same things. "

YOU DONT UNDERSTAND? That's why this generation is doomed. You see teenagers driving Mercedes and Cadillacs with their ridiculous "spinners" and 20" wheels, and see no difference between a doctor or an engineer driving the same model Mercedes or Cadillac (without the stupid wheels). Do you really think that the rap "star" can drive up to the Country Club and expect the same treatment? The valets will take that purple Escalade with its $2000 wheels and ghetto blaster sound system and park it way down the street around the corner where it wont be seen. Meanwhile, the stock Escalade being driven by Dr. X will be proudly parked in front, while the doorman ushers him into the Clubhouse.

Its the intangibles which are important. Its not about race anymore....its about the haves and the have nots. Its about prestige and knowledge, not about fame and fortune. You have to work hard to get those things.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
16 May 2005
Mr Tax Payer,

You say, "You immature children flap your lips because you dont know any better. When you have married and have children and own property and can VOTE, revisit this issue with a more mature perspective, and then you might just be able to "relate"

You continue to make wild assumptions and rather reaching analogies.

Since demographics are so important to you I am the sole support for a family of four one of whom is a student at a state college for which we are currently paying full instate tutition (no financial aid), and two of whom are in the public school system. I make enoughh to support this (just barely) and enough to be taxed to death but not so much I don't have to crabble every month to make ends meet in the wonderfully expensive boston area.

Though I don't own propersty so perhaps my citizenship should be demoted to second class, if so much of my income weren't going to the war machine and corporate welfare programs maybe I could.

The wealth and space of the United States can hardly be compaded to a middle class suburban home or a median income family. The wealth in this nation is heavily top loaded in case you haven't noticed so that median family does not have an average share of the wealth.

You seem to have a heavily ingrained poverty mentality. This idea that there's just not enough to go around. Well there is, there's more than enough.

The only reason this is even an issue is because politicians don't want to take funding from their pork barrel projects that keep the big donors happy and move it into decent social and infastructual projects.

What is the US federal budget, what will this program cost, what would increasing legal immigration 10 fold cost (remember this would be net of increases in tax revenue due to the increaded population contributing to increases in demand and production).
THEIF! How dare you make that statement.
16 May 2005
"Tax payers are suffering you say? Don’t be so quick to run your mouth if you don’t know what illegals live like. I and my parents have tax ids. Which means we work and PAY PAY PAY taxes, same ones you do."

You have "Tax ID"? How the hell can you have a tax ID (SSN) unless they were STOLEN from someone else? Why should I want to learn what living like an illegal is like? I could rob a bank or perhaps do an identity theft (like you did), but what for? I am an American Citizen, and I dont need nor want to find out what its like to live like a criminal.

I was fortunate enough to go to a college where there were a lot of new American Citizens who were originally from Russia. What makes you so special that you cant go through the same legal process that they did? Whine somewhere else.
Lets take care of our own first, then worry about illegals later.
16 May 2005
"What is the US federal budget, what will this program cost, what would increasing legal immigration 10 fold cost (remember this would be net of increases in tax revenue due to the increaded population contributing to increases in demand and production)."

It is already costing too much for us to support illegals. What about all the homeless and poor Americans who could benefit from that funding?

All of you illegals GET OUT! Stand in line with the other honorable immigrants waiting their LEGAL turns.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
16 May 2005
Huh? That tax id was issued on MY name and its totally legit.

I have an asylum case thats being going on for years, in the meanwhile I can' have a life? I can't drive, I can't study?
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
16 May 2005
american taxpayer,

don't forget that this country that you're espousing so many great things about was founded by illegal immigrants. but once they stole land from the native americans they decided to make all sorts of rules to follow about immmigration. but they were still illegal immigrants to start it all off. we're a country of criminals by your logic.

second, there have been plenty of unjust laws that were illegal that people have broken throughout the history of this country. were slaves who liberated themselves supposed to turn themselves back in, because they were illegals?

if you feel like america is having trouble scraping by, it's not because of this "enormous" influx of illegal immigrants. it's because the government is blowing a bunch of money on the war machine and corporate welfare (as a previous post mentioned). look at the federal budget, it's not like the DSS is taking up half of it.

third, most of the times it's cheaper to pay for an education than it is for jailtime and deportation-- and, frankly, that works in everyone's best interest.

fourth, just because someone is a "criminal" doesn't mean they should be taken advantage of. that goes for immigrant workers, as well as people in jail. i'm interested in human rights, not citizen rights. if you disagree with the idea of human rights, put it out there, because i don't think that issue and reconciled with most people on indymedia.

fifth, i'm glad that you have a family. i don't. i work and pay taxes. i choose not to have a family. don't act like you get some sort of special privileges because you have one. so chill out with, the "i bet you don't have a family" crap and get on with it. i'm sure people are happy for you, but it really has nothing to do with this conversation and comes off as patronizing at best.
Stop. Just STOP right there.
16 May 2005
"don't forget that this country that you're espousing so many great things about was founded by illegal immigrants. but once they stole land from the native americans they decided to make all sorts of rules to follow about immmigration. but they were still illegal immigrants to start it all off. we're a country of criminals by your logic."

This country was NOT founded by illegal immigrants. One must enter a country to me an immigrant. The United States wasnt formed until 1776, then each new person becoming a citizen was an "immigrant" to the new country. All immigration was LEGAL at that point. Restrictive laws concerning immigration went into effect in 1790. You would know that if you went to school and payed attention. Your whole distorted "we are a country of illegal immigrants" is the mantra of the foolish and ignorant.

"second, there have been plenty of unjust laws that were illegal that people have broken throughout the history of this country. were slaves who liberated themselves supposed to turn themselves back in, because they were illegals?"

Hey, Im half black and I know all about black history and Civil Rights. NONE of that applies to illegal immigrants jumping over the fence of a sovereign nation. The slaves were BROUGHT here, illegal Mexicans are not. The laws which protect American interests over those of illegal moochers who blatantly disregard our laws is UNJUST, and will not be overturned. The Constitution forbids it.

"if you feel like america is having trouble scraping by, it's not because of this "enormous" influx of illegal immigrants. it's because the government is blowing a bunch of money on the war machine and corporate welfare (as a previous post mentioned). look at the federal budget, it's not like the DSS is taking up half of it."

Where the hell do you think the money the government is spending is coming from? That's right: American Taxpayers. I support the war, our soldiers, and any legislation which benefits Americans. I dont give a shit about the illegals.

"third, most of the times it's cheaper to pay for an education than it is for jailtime and deportation-- and, frankly, that works in everyone's best interest."

Deportation is cheaper than paying for an education, and is the preferred method to deal with these illegals. But the real problem in entering the country illegally in the first f'ing place.

GET REAL.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
16 May 2005
taxpayer,

are you delusional? do you think that north america was a continent devoid of humans, waiting for the europeans? well, thanks for your patronizing statements, but i did pay attention in school. and, believe it or not, native americans were here before the europeans arrived. and the europeans weren't welcome after the first few colonies were set up. sure, there weren't european nation-state laws in place, but the europeans came to this land uninvited, stole it, and then made a bunch of rules. that sure sounds like illegal immigration to me.

and i'm glad you've come clean about "not giving a shit about illegal immigrants." well, buddy, i happen to care about people, whether they're citizens or not. i care about HUMAN rights, not citizen rights. and if you want to draw a line there, fine, when shit goes down, i'll see you on the other side. and this conversation is pretty much over.

"Where the hell do you think the money the government is spending is coming from? That's right: American Taxpayers. I support the war, our soldiers, and any legislation which benefits Americans." dude, look at the federal budget. half of it is going to war. HALF. and a lot of that is funding a war in iraq that was based on lies (still no WMD have been found, but someone as educated as you surely knows that). and i'm sure someone as educated as you know that war isn't cheap, and thus knows, that it plays quite a hefty reason into why taxes are so high. stop scapegoating "illegal" immigrants.

so when it comes down to it:

1) i would rather pay for illegal immigrants to have access to necessities than i would for war

2) would rather live with people who care about other people than americans who think they get something special because they were born here.

seeing as you "don't give a shit about illegal immigrants" (you have such a big heart), i'm pretty sure this means that our conversation is over.
Who is delusional?
16 May 2005
"are you delusional? do you think that north america was a continent devoid of humans, waiting for the europeans? well, thanks for your patronizing statements, but i did pay attention in school. and, believe it or not, native americans were here before the europeans arrived. and the europeans weren't welcome after the first few colonies were set up. sure, there weren't european nation-state laws in place, but the europeans came to this land uninvited, stole it, and then made a bunch of rules. that sure sounds like illegal immigration to me."

Look at the word IMMIGRANT. This is the official definition of "immigrant":

Immigrant Pronunciation: 'i-mi-gr&nt Function: noun : one that immigrates : as a : a person who <b>comes to a country</b> to take up permanent residence

There was no "COUNTRY" called the United States until 1776. Therefore, there could be no immigrants, legal or illegal, at that time. One cannt be an immigrant until there is a country to immigrate to. What, did you get an "F" in school?

Then, you blather on about WMD and the War in Iraq, and blah blah blah. What has any of that got to do with this thread? I dont care if the government uses MY tax dollars to support the interests of this country abroad. Just add it to the rest of the BILLIONS of dollars in aid we have sent to so many other countries (including those where these illegals are coming from). If the US is such a bad place filled with so many evil people, then WHY the hell are they trying to come here? GET THE HELL OUT.

Oh, and this conversation was over several responses ago. You just dont have enough life experience to understand this issue. No children in school, no property owned, and no graduate level education....just what qualifies you to debate in this discussion? Your utopian ideaology is immature and unrealistic. This conversation is indeed over.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
16 May 2005
you're right this conversation did end a long time ago-- when you made it apparent that you're a self-serving asshole.

i'm going to do everything i can to help illegal immigrants, because A) i think it's the right thing to do and B) to spite your pretentious ass.

your life experiences give you no right to talk about this issue, you're not an immigrant, what do you know what it's like?

you're old, cynical, and worthless. but thanks for your input.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
16 May 2005
To: American Taxpayer KSBM

The point is we are here, and we are people not animals so we are not going to be penned in.
Nothing can stop illegal immigration as long as people have ambitions and dreams of being happy.
Instead of trying to push us back out it is better to "direct" the flow for beneficial purposes.

I want to become a citezen, and I will thus pay taxes. Other immigrants will join the army.

And if its not obvious to you, I and others like me will not go back to our native countries. (I did not say "home") Instead we will find ways to legalized. Most get married and have kids and till they are 21. This, this is the epensive process, expensive for US.
Immigration is good. ILLEGAL immigration is not.
16 May 2005
"i'm going to do everything i can to help illegal immigrants, because A) i think it's the right thing to do and B) to spite your pretentious ass."

Good. If youre an employer, then you will be heavily fined. If you smuggle them in, then you will go to prison. The "right thing to do" is obeying the law. If you dont like the law, then vote or protest or lobby or whatever you have to do to get them changed. Unfortunately for you, about 85% of Americans do NOT support illegal immigration or making their illegal status legal. Its the employers using them as cheap labor who want to give amnesty. What will they do with their legal citizenship? If they dont speak English, they will find themselves right back in the fields. You are a moron.

Also, only CITIZENS can join the armed forces. Why do you ignore the fact that there is already a LEGAL process for immigration? What makes the Mexican illegals more special than the immigrants from say, France, or Germany, or Sweden, or Ethiopia, or Somalia, or China, etc.? WAIT IN LINE and go the legal route.

Talk about pretentious....
That is the attitude that is making so many Americans angry.
16 May 2005
"The point is we are here, and we are people not animals so we are not going to be penned in.
Nothing can stop illegal immigration as long as people have ambitions and dreams of being happy. "

Wanna bet? You are already "penned in". You cannot own a home, you cannot register a vehicle or get a driver license, and you cannot get identification (unless you STEAL it or pay a document forger), and best of all....you cannot vote. You have to watch your back at every turn. What a great life to raise children in, huh?

"Instead of trying to push us back out it is better to "direct" the flow for beneficial purposes."

Who are you to tell me what is or what is not beneficial to Americans? There is a reason that citizens groups are rallying to form vigilante groups and State Border Patrol agencies, and voting out politicians who will not support the laws of this country by letting illegals in.

"I want to become a citezen, and I will thus pay taxes. Other immigrants will join the army."

GOOD! I support your desire to take the legal route to immigration. That's what its there for. By all means go for it, and I hope you get it.

"And if its not obvious to you, I and others like me will not go back to our native countries. (I did not say "home") Instead we will find ways to legalized. Most get married and have kids and till they are 21. This, this is the epensive process, expensive for US. "

Dont worry....we can afford it for now. Despite all the efforts of special interest groups trying to legalize illegals, time after time you have seen states pass anti-illegal legislation: California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Texas. More are coming...and if California forms its own Border Patrol as planned, then the flow will stop. Not only that, the ones still here will be "penned in" by more laws which will prevent landlords from allowing illegals to rent without proper documentation. The schools will be FORCED to follow the provisions of the law.

Here is a little tidbit you should read:

http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_8218.shtml

"The law, approved unanimously by the Senate on Tuesday, waives environmental rules to allow the extension of a fence on the border between California and Mexico to stop illegal immigrants. Mexico calls the measure ‘overly extreme.’

So much for your defiant "we are here to stay" attitude. That's right, they are going to build a FENCE (wall). Read the rest of that article. This newswire would have you believe that Americans support illegals, but the reality is that 85% do NOT support it, and are up in arms about it.

Good luck on your legal journey. I hope you get your citizenship.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
16 May 2005
I think we should export all the dumb fuck poor Americans who were born here and blew their chance, and replace them with hard-working immigrants.
Uh, yeah.
17 May 2005
Whatever. As long as they are LEGAL hard-working immigrants, I dont have a problem with that.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
17 May 2005
100,000,000 lemminngs can't be wrong

Quote:
"This newswire would have you believe that Americans support illegals, but the reality is that 85% do NOT support it, and are up in arms about it."
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
17 May 2005
While we started on the subject of the article, the discussion and demagoguery has really spun out of control. Facts are that these young adults and teenagers may have been brought here with little if any input on their parent's decisions. Another fact is the ill conceived Plyler decision (which places an undue ballast upon American citizens to benefit foreigners in, as I see it, violation of the very same XIV ammendment that it used to justify its decision) guaranteed the right of illegal alien children to a K-12 education. The current debate only pushes into the future the fact that these children will not be elegible to work in the US once, and if, they graduate from college. What we're seeing here is a veresion of what they used to call in the 60's "mission creep". In a few years, Mrs. Jarrin-Thomas will be arguing that we've invested all this money, in the form of in-state-tuition, that it would be foolhardy to alow such an "investment" to go to waste. There is no doubt that the real vilains in this matter are the unemployeable masses expelling governments and the razor thin privileged minority that exploit the population and see illegal immigration as a safety valve to avoid any potential uprising that would usher in real changes and upset their apple cart. As to the question of one person being better than another or having a greater right to be in one place, I'd like to pass that on to the various members of the discussion to research. Those of you, who like myself were not born in the United States, look into your homeland's statutes and see what the immigration laws allow. Those of you who are Americans who feel so guilty over your good fortune to be born in one of the handful of countries where the term democracy is not an euphemism for the current oligarchy, please feel free to research the country of your choice from the ten or twenty major contributors to the ranks of illegal immigrants flooding our country, hospitals, schools and now Universities. You'll find that most are draconian in comparison to our milquetoast statutes governing immigration. That the horde of illegal aliens currently squatting in our midst can't even abide by these rather temperate requirements is a testament to their egocentric and selfish expectation best embodied by the oft heard statement of "I'm here and I'm not going away, so get used to it" that seems to dribble off most of the pro-illegal alien student advocates.

As to laws, and the illegality of them, let me quote a Mexican jurist who said "the law may be unfair and even unjust, but it is the law and it must be respected". Laws are the tool that serves to separate us from animals, savages and anarchists. There are laws that should be disopbeyed because they prey upon those who are dispossessed and lack options. Illegal aliens do not fall into such a category. They, or in this case their parents, came here voluntarily, in full knowledge of the criminal violation that their unlawful entry represented and yet, they struck their faustian deal. Now, when their choices interfere with newly augmented expectations, they seek to change the consequences of their acts. If these youths want to hold someone up for scorn, they should start with their parents for plunging them into an existence of illegality and clandestinity. For ensuring that they will be in doubt of their self worth as persons for being "illegal" and for having to make up exuses for not having their driver's license, for not having a Social Security Number or for using an ITIN. By the way, even the IRS, who issues these ITIN's has gone on record that these are not to be used for identity. Even if you pay taxes using one of these, you'd still not be off the hook. You've worked a job that you are NOT legally entitled to hold, you have displaced another person who does have the right to that position and you feel vindicated and validated becauuse you pay taxes on your ill-gotten gains from illegal revenue? Al Capone should have had you for counsel. The fact is that all countries have laws that restrict and regulate the flow of population across their borders. Those who are in violation of the law here would be surprised that they would be, at least, in the same violation in their homelands. Those who are now adults, can no longer hide behind the aprons of their parent's decisions. You are now an adult. You are now accountable for your actions and your decisions. If you are going to be in frank disobedience of immigraiton law, the least you can do is be public about it. You may get deported and become a personality and a statement, or you may be deported and nobody may care. The fact is you are now an illegal alien and it hs been your decision to remain in the country illegally. No one likes to be a delinquent, or a criminal, but to blame the U.S. citizens, who have done nothing to cause the millions of illegal aliens who have invaded our communities, of racism for insisting that our laws be, if not enforced, at least respected, is yet another imposition of the cute rottweiler puppy that has now grown into a snarling menace.
TELL EM CARLOS! Now YOU are the kind of immigrant that deserves his citizenship.
17 May 2005
Oh yeah, you hit it right on the head!

"That the horde of illegal aliens currently squatting in our midst can't even abide by these rather temperate requirements is a testament to their egocentric and selfish expectation best embodied by the oft heard statement of "I'm here and I'm not going away, so get used to it" that seems to dribble off most of the pro-illegal alien student advocates."

This gentleman, Mr Rodriguez, is exactly correct in his assessments. He has stated that he was not born in the United States, but lets all take a look at his elegant writing style, his well expressed ideas, and the basic statement of his message: It is NOT the fault of the American Citizens that life is hard for illegals. The fault of the illegal status of offspring belongs with the parents who came here illegally and VOLUNTARILY. Why is it that he has not only mastered the English written language (and I would imagine he speaks equally as well), and has taken a hard look at this issue as I have, and arrived at the same conclusions?

How did Carlos put it so eloquently?:

"They, or in this case their parents, came here voluntarily, in full knowledge of the criminal violation that their unlawful entry represented and yet, they struck their faustian deal. Now, when their choices interfere with newly augmented expectations, they seek to change the consequences of their acts. If these youths want to hold someone up for scorn, they should start with their parents for plunging them into an existence of illegality and clandestinity."

Mr Rodriguez, my hat is off to you.
Also, to the person who didnt even put his/her name
17 May 2005
What was that your saud?

"100,000,000 lemmings cant be wrong"

PARDON ME? I guess you mean REAL lemmings. Im talking about PEOPLE....specifically American Citizens. Lets do the math:

Current estimated population of the United States is: 296,119,008

10% of that is roughly 29 million people. and roughly 10% of THAT figure would be illegals who cannot vote, and naturally do not support anti-illegal legislation.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44154

QUOTE:

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

A new opinion poll by Zogby International indicates Americans are hardly pleased with the Bush administration on the subject of illegal immigration.

The poll, cited on CNN's "Lou Dobbs Tonight" program yesterday, noted a huge majority – 81 percent – believes local and state police should help federal authorities enforce laws against illegal immigration. Only 14 percent disagreed.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
17 May 2005
Carlos brings up an interesting point:

"There is no doubt that the real vilains in this matter are the unemployeable masses expelling governments and the razor thin privileged minority that exploit the population and see illegal immigration as a safety valve to avoid any potential uprising that would usher in real changes and upset their apple cart."

I belive this is orthagonal to the immediate topic, but is something people should consider.

I also think people not govenments should decide where they want to live. Those dottering fools amoung us may remember all the cold war era US anti Soviet propoganda focusing in Soviet trevel documents and the controll the state excercised over people movement as one of the Orwellian horrors of Communist life. Well this is cheerfully accepted on a global scale because "everyone does it", most other explainations echo the KGB and Stasi state security philosophy. The remainder are naive economic protectionism, US jobs are more likely to be outsourced to the thirdworld nation people are fleeing than snapped up stateside by undocumented people.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
18 May 2005
1. Restrictionist Allegation: This bill would provide an incentive for people to come here illegally. • Our Response: This bill offers absolutely NO incentive for undocumented people to enter the country. The bill clearly states that eligible students must be in the country for at least 5 years at the time of enactment. 2. Restrictionist Allegation: This bill will increase the strain on state educational systems, thereby further exacerbating the states’ existing fiscal crises. • Our Response: This bill would not create any new in-state tuition breaks. It would simply allow these kids to be eligible for those breaks already available to qualified applicants. More importantly, this bill does not force the states to offer in-state tuition to these children. It simply would amend the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (IIRAIRA) to again permit states to determine residency for in-state tuition purposes. Significantly, evidence shows that offering in-state tuition to these children would be in the states’ economic interest by increasing tax revenues and decreasing criminal justice and welfare expenses. A 1999 RAND study showed that a 30-year-old Mexican immigrant woman who has graduated from college will pay $5,300 more in taxes and cost $3,900 less in criminal justice and welfare expenses each year than if she had dropped out of high school. This amounts to an annual boost in the state coffers of over $9,000 per person. The bottom line is that these states have been investing in the education of these children in elementary and secondary school and deserve to choose whether they want a return on their investment. 3. Restrictionist Allegation: U.S. citizen children will have to sacrifice their own educational aspirations because there are a finite number of seats available at public universities. • Our Response: These undocumented children are only asking to be included in the applicant pool, not to receive preferential treatment. The most qualified students will be selected and the rest will pursue their educational dreams in other ways, such as through a different public university or the community college system. The question is not whether all U.S. raised children should have their “first choice” when it comes to their educational dreams, but whether they should be afforded a choice at all. This legislation will give all children in the U.S. the ability to access affordable higher education and to compete for their “first choice” institutions of higher learning. This is not a zero sum game.
4. Restrictionist Allegation: Sometimes kids have to pay for the mistakes of their parents. • Our Response: It is well settled in our legal system that “legal burdens should bear some relationship to individual responsibility or wrongdoing.” Weber v. Aetna Casualty & Surety Co., 406 U.S. 164, 175 (1972). These children “can affect neither their parents’ conduct nor their own status.” Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202, 220 (1982). These children were either unaware or unable to control the situation that brought them to this country. By denying them the opportunity for a higher education and an adjustment of status, we are punishing them for the actions of others. This is directly at odds with both our legal and moral values as a nation. Any notion that we should saddle these kids with a lifelong punishment for the actions of others is an unseemly, mean-spirited and irrational approach to solving our immigration problems. 5. Restrictionist Allegation: U.S. taxpayers should not have to subsidize the education of undocumented children. • Our Response: The parents of undocumented children are also sharing the tax burden. In addition to paying sales taxes, many of these undocumented families pay property taxes as well as income taxes. Additionally, by educating these children taxpayers are benefiting by realizing increased tax revenues and decreased criminal justice and welfare expenses. 6. Restrictionist Allegation: It is unfair for an undocumented child to benefit from in-state tuition in the state where they were raised, while a U.S. citizen student from out of state would be ineligible for this benefit. • Our Response: This bill simply returns authority to the states to make these judgment calls. Many states argue that the fairness lies in the fact that the parents of these undocumented children have been paying state taxes for years, in obvious contrast to the parents of out of state students. The states also argue that the children raised in their state are more likely to remain in the state after graduation, thus providing increased tax revenues and the strong economic foundations created by an educated workforce. States want, and deserve, to see the return on their investment. 7. Restrictionist Allegation: This bill would reward people who came here illegally. • Our Response: The only thing this bill would reward is strength of character and hard work. These children were brought here at an age where they had no say in the matter or were unaware of the legal ramifications of their entry. It is intellectually dishonest to link the educational benefits they earned through hard work and perseverance to actions taken years ago by their parents, over which they had no control. 8. Restrictionist Allegation: Allowing these children to adjust status would punish those immigrants who played by the rules and waited in line to become legal. • Our Response: Legal immigrants are among the biggest supporters of these children. They understand the difficulties these young people have had to overcome to learn a new language, stay in school, and stay out of trouble. They also understand that the adjustment of these children’s status in no way affects other immigrants’ ability or time-line to legalize. These are completely separate mechanisms for legalization. Additionally, these children
gladly would have waited in line for the chance to legalize if the government had created a line for them. They have been waiting their entire lives just for this chance. 9. Restrictionist Allegation: Our immigration system doesn’t work and needs wholesale changes. These children should have to wait until these changes occur. • Our Response: We all agree that our immigration system is broken and that we desperately need comprehensive immigration reform. However, it is uncertain when this reform will be enacted. In the meantime, 50,000-65,000 children graduating from high school each year are having their lives put on hold. Their educational options are slammed shut, they face the constant fear of deportation, and they are forced into dead-end jobs. These children can’t afford to wait for Congress to hash out the details of a comprehensive reform bill. The DREAM Act/Student Adjustment Act is a modest, bipartisan bill that needs to be pushed through this year. These kids, and our taxpayers, can’t afford to wait any longer. 34tp4001 3/1/05
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
20 May 2005
Go DREAM Act.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
20 May 2005
Wow, lots of good points, lots of stupid points, and some undercover racism...
Let me begin with the most important point. LEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE WELCOME: Well, allow me to tell you that there is a ridiculously small number of legal pathways abailable. You cannot apply for a working permit to come and work as a fruit picker, or janitor or burger flipper. EVEN IF YOU WANTED TO COME HERE LEGALLY,YOU CANNOT. Before you start sounding all pompous mister taxpayer, you should investigate the issue at depth and you will realize that 1) There is a need for cotton pickers and low wage janitors etc in the U.S 2) But there is no way to come in here illegaly 3) oh and by the way the border just happns to be not so hard to cross...
I hope you can see the pattern... There are no visas abailable becasue the government knows that illegal immigration is waaay cheaper, and therefore they just turn a blind eye. Then people like you who sit in their computer and type shit up, just summarize everything in a simple and beautiful manner "Why didnt they just come here Legally?"
As I type this I have little or no hope in changing your mind, for I see that your abailability to reason is close to null, and the nature of your comments evidence that you are a racist at heart who hides in the law... I do however have hopes that others, who have expressed their opinions for "legal immigration is ok" might be enlighted and realize that those of us who came here illegally did so because we absolutely had no other choice, and if there had been a place or time to apply for a visa we would have. Oh and by the way, I am a molecular and cell biology grad student, one of those illegal children who used your American tax dollars for my education... Just want to let you know that I am doing Cancer research at school, and hope that I can help some how increase the pool of knoweledge in search of a cure, for EVERYONE, regardless of race, status, legality, and even those with airs of grandeur.
You are not representative of the majority.
20 May 2005
YOU SAID:

"Wow, lots of good points, lots of stupid points, and some undercover racism..."

Kill the racism spin right off the bat. I guess you missed my message above regarding illegals who try to use the race card when cornered. I am half black, half Caucasian Puerto Rican (mother who was born in Puerto Rico by English/Spanish parents). I speak Spanish. I have a Brazilian girlfriend, and I am not a racist in any sense of the word.

THEN:

"Let me begin with the most important point. LEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE WELCOME: Well, allow me to tell you that there is a ridiculously small number of legal pathways abailable. You cannot apply for a working permit to come and work as a fruit picker, or janitor or burger flipper. EVEN IF YOU WANTED TO COME HERE LEGALLY,YOU CANNOT."

Like DUH. Who needs an IMPORTED burger flipper or fruit picker? Those jobs which Vincente Fox claimed "are even beneath blacks in America" are potential jobs for Americans. I would even prefer convicts doing that work over illegal immigrants or "guest workers" doing it. Why? Because those workers have to eat, sleep, and have healthcare....and babies (many MANY babies). On the surface, it doesnt seem that important, but in the long run it is disastrous to America.

"Before you start sounding all pompous mister taxpayer, you should investigate the issue at depth and you will realize that 1) There is a need for cotton pickers and low wage janitors etc in the U.S 2) But there is no way to come in here illegaly 3) oh and by the way the border just happns to be not so hard to cross..."

Think again, Mr pompous ILLEGAL immigrant: H.R. 1258 has been signed into Law, so not only are the borders not going to be so easy to cross, but even if they get through, they cannot get ID anywhere in the United States (even if the state has been issuing them up to now). They will be arrested in the courtrooms if they cannot prove their immigration status, and they will be deported. If they enter public hospitals for care, their immigration status will also be checked...and upon recovery, INS officials will deport them. Looks like Congress AND the Senate have just put the red and yellow striped tent over the Nation to get rid of the vermin.

"I hope you can see the pattern... There are no visas abailable becasue the government knows that illegal immigration is waaay cheaper, and therefore they just turn a blind eye. Then people like you who sit in their computer and type shit up, just summarize everything in a simple and beautiful manner "Why didnt they just come here Legally?"
As I type this I have little or no hope in changing your mind, for I see that your abailability to reason is close to null, and the nature of your comments evidence that you are a racist at heart who hides in the law... I do however have hopes that others, who have expressed their opinions for "legal immigration is ok" might be enlighted and realize that those of us who came here illegally did so because we absolutely had no other choice, and if there had been a place or time to apply for a visa we would have."

Just a cop out. You could have devoted your efforts to improving the conditions in your own country of origin. WHY arent the illegals who are educated here going back to their countries and contributing to its future like we (Americans) are doing here? Why arent those who are so dissatisified with Mexico doing absolutely NOTHING about it?

I find it entertaining when Vincente Fox complains to the U.S. that we are making it so difficult for illegals to come here and work. Get ready, because you might just have to go back where you came from. Oh, and if you look at my connects of May 13, you will see that I said this: "Legal immigrants have the rights they are entitled to under the Constitution of the United States. Illegal immigrants do not. Im all for legal immigration, and I am a man of color, so I support this legal immigration from any country and by any racial group."

"Oh and by the way, I am a molecular and cell biology grad student, one of those illegal children who used your American tax dollars for my education... Just want to let you know that I am doing Cancer research at school, and hope that I can help some how increase the pool of knoweledge in search of a cure, for EVERYONE, regardless of race, status, legality, and even those with airs of grandeur."

Good for you. I am also a Grad student (Computer Science) with a Masters. But I am also an American Citizen, and I paid my way. My parents paid their way, and those before them. Now, I am paying huge taxes because I am in an upper tax bracket, and I see how they are being WASTED on illegals (among other things) Should I have expected Mexico to pay my education? Should I have entered the U.K. illegally and attended Oxford University, and ALSO expected the Brits to pay my way for 12 years too??? Talk about "airs of grandeur"

Im sure that a molecular/cell biologist could be very useful in the Scientific Community IN YOUR COUNTRY. If you apply for citizenship here, you will probably get it because you can prove that you could contribute to the American population. Go for it, but if you remain illegal, then you will remain in my crosshairs.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
20 May 2005
" She speaks English, has successfully completed K-12, and probable has not gotten into any criminal behavior. Go for it."

I think your comment illustrates the fact that you do not know how the immigration system works. It is not that easy to become a citizen, there is no way to become a citizen/legal resident . you cannot just one day decide to become an legal because there is simply no way to become one. Even if you speak English,pay taxes,volunteer at your local hospital,and are otherwise an exemplary individual who hasn't broken a single law except for that single time that you decided to try to provide your children a better life. There is simply no way to become legal unless you marry a citizen and even if you marry,you may be deported andnot allowed to come back for 10 years. If it were that easy do you think that there would be a need for a bill like the DREAM Act when anyone could just strol down the street to the nearest immigration center?
Did I say it was easy? There are others in line, sir. Please wait your turn.
20 May 2005
You said:

"I think your comment illustrates the fact that you do not know how the immigration system works. It is not that easy to become a citizen, there is no way to become a citizen/legal resident ."

Ahem....I beg to differ. People become citizens and legal residents every day. Thousands of them.

"You cannot just one day decide to become an legal because there is simply no way to become one."

(please read above response re: people becoming citizens and legal residents every day). It is a very simple process, and my government as seen to it that not just ANYBODY can pass the grade.The applications are translated into all of the major world's languages (at extra expense to American taxpayers, I might add). All you have to do is to FILL IT OUT. There are other considerations.

"Even if you speak English,pay taxes,volunteer at your local hospital,and are otherwise an exemplary individual who hasn't broken a single law except for that single time that you decided to try to provide your children a better life."

In other words, if I rob a bank once because I needed money real REAL bad, and after that become a librarian and help the old ladies across the street, and go to Church, and save little girl's cats from trees.....that my crime is erased? Dont fret, my illegal guest. American criminals suffer much the same fate. Its called "having a criminal record". If you are here illegally, your lack of proof of legal immigration status makes you guilty of a CRIME. I believe you are familiar with the punishments.

"There is simply no way to become legal unless you marry a citizen and even if you marry,you may be deported and not allowed to come back for 10 years."

Please see response above. American ex-cons carry their police records with them for years as well. Some for life. As far as marrying, it is very obvious when the "marry to get citizenship" game is attempted. Once again, do you think that marriage should forgive me of my crimes?

"If it were that easy do you think that there would be a need for a bill like the DREAM Act when anyone could just strol down the street to the nearest immigration center?"

YOU DONT GET IT.

There are OTHERS in line in front of you. Some have been in line for more than two years. How arrogant of you to presume that you are better than everyone else who wants to legally immigrate to the U.S.! You are cutting in line, and when the others watching you frown upon your actions, you have the GALL to open your mouth in protest?

Forget it. I feel absolutely NO guilt in knowing that you will eventually be deported....or become a citizen. Whatever your fate, YOU have created it. Dont try to blame me, or the American Public.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
21 May 2005
I cannot believe the level of your ignorance, altough I can see that you are intelligent by the way you write and counter arguments... Unfortunately your intelligence does not equal wise. Allow me to explain...
You said...
1)Im sure that a molecular/cell biologist could be very useful in the Scientific Community IN YOUR COUNTRY
I wonder if you realize that a molecular cell biologist is not useful in country A or B... Cancer research, diabetes, stem cell, and all those very important investigation will be useful for MANKIND, people here, in mexico, australia, galapagos islands, ur neighboors, your family, and the guys whose computers you fix.
2) I have payed taxes since I was 16, and received zero dollars back, so I am not a free loader by any means.
3)I will not be getting deported thank you very much... my sister filled an application for me, unfortunately its ridiculously backlogged, thanks again to BROKEN immigration system...
3) Blame your parents you say... Well, my parents brought me when I was just 11 years old, they broke the law, and became ilegals. THE SACRED LAWS THAT YOU HOLD SO DEARLY have GRANTED my parents residency, because my sister married some guy that was a citizen...Now, before you think of what great comeback to type, I just ask you to sit back and analyze what I just typed, and ask yourself... IS THE SYSTEM BROKEN OR NOT? My law breaking parents are about to be citizens, my sister who just decided to mrry some dude is now an american Citizen. I CAME WITH THEM. I have the highest scores in my high school, done community service, earned golden state exam awards, graduated from colege at age 21, and now at 22 about to finish a Msters program in Cell Bio. Never broke a law, I repeat, NEVER broke a law, as an underage I was not liable for my parents descicion... Blame my parents you say... YOUR SACRED LAWS DID NOT, THEY WERE GRANTED RESIDENCY.
3) No third point, if you fail to accept the fact that hundreds of thousands of cotton pickers are needed and that ZERO visas are abailable for cotton pickers... I mean come one, do you see lines of people applying to Mc Donalds? They are always hiring, ALWAYs,no one is taking away their jobs...

I really do see high intelligence on your writing and argumentative skills. You have the ability to turn black into white and white in the black...BUT ONLY WISE MAN HAVE THE ABILITY TO SEE THAT THERE ARE MANY SHADES OF GRAY IN BETWEEN BLACK AND WHITE.
Thank you for the compliments, but I did say that you arent representative of the MAJORITY of illegals
21 May 2005
I am glad you have applied for residency. You WILL get it. I am not against Mexicans (or other immigrants). If you read my first comment above regarding the 16 year old girl above, I said "The reality is that she can apply for citizenship and probably get it"

You are much in the same situation as Araceli, except that you are now a scientist with a valuable skill, and you have already graduated college. You seem like a very intelligent and conscientious person, AND you are at least attempting the legal process. I support you 100%. You are NOT representative of most illegals, who jump the fence and never even attempt to become legal.

YOU SAID:

"Well, my parents brought me when I was just 11 years old, they broke the law, and became ilegals. THE SACRED LAWS THAT YOU HOLD SO DEARLY have GRANTED my parents residency, because my sister married some guy that was a citizen...Now, before you think of what great comeback to type, I just ask you to sit back and analyze what I just typed, and ask yourself... IS THE SYSTEM BROKEN OR NOT?"

NO. The system is not broken, its our government which is broken. Certain special interest groups in the Republican Party (I am a Republican) have, for years, turned a blind eye to illegals because they provide a de-facto slave class of cleap labor. The immigration laws are well-written, and if enforced would be very effective. Our Border Patrol has been intentionally lax in their enforcement because of this. I support you because YOU did not break the law, and it is your parents who were the criminals. Because your parents have contributed a scientist to this nation, and you and your sister have not broken laws, AND you speak and write English (very well, I might add) you have been rewarded with residency. GOOD! I support that.

"My law breaking parents are about to be citizens, my sister who just decided to mrry some dude is now an american Citizen. I CAME WITH THEM. I have the highest scores in my high school, done community service, earned golden state exam awards, graduated from colege at age 21, and now at 22 about to finish a Msters program in Cell Bio. Never broke a law, I repeat, NEVER broke a law, as an underage I was not liable for my parents descicion... Blame my parents you say... YOUR SACRED LAWS DID NOT, THEY WERE GRANTED RESIDENCY."

Once again, please see my comments above. The fact is that your situation is not representative of the problem. Its the MILLIONS of illegals who do not speak English, some of which have criminal records in their home countries, and who NEVER attempt to get legal residency. Its the possiblility that the porous borders might be used by terrorists to enter the country, its the arrogant attitude of Vincente Fox, and its the corruption of the Border Patrol which sets me off.

I genuinely hope that you get your full citizenship. I also have the same hope that my government will enforce the border laws and prevent illegals from jumping the fence, and that they will actively seek out and deport those who hide from the law as outlaw criminals.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
27 May 2005
NO, PRESIDENT VICENTE FOX OWES NO ONE ANY APOLOGIES

THE IDIOTIC CHILANGOS AND CHANGOS CAN'T APPRECIATE A SUPERB LEADER. HE IS OUR NATIONAL TREASURE.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
28 May 2005
Consider the following:

George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
Abraham Lincoln
Theodore Roosevelt
Franklin Roosevelt
Jimmy Carter
Ronald Reagan
And some foreigners...
Simon Bolivar
Winston Churchill
Margaret Thatcher
John Major
Golda Meir
Ghandi

With Vicente Fox

Fox is Mexico's national treasure? If so, then Mexico almost meets the low standards that it sets for itself.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
30 May 2005
Hello, I've been reading all the comments and I just wanted to emphasize that the MAIN issue here is the people who were illegally brought to this country as children. I can understand why people like American Taxpayer is upset about ADULTS illegally immigrating to the USA and I don't blame him. But aside from all the various reasons/causes of illegal immigration, I think that what we all need to focus on is a solution to the people who were illegally brought here as children. I was brought here illegally when I was just four years old! I don't even have any recollection of it. I have excelled all my life in school, graduated high-school with a 3.8 GPA and I am currently majoring in a nursing program at a state university. I aspire to save lives and help people one day. My mother has been petitioned by her citizen sister but of course it will take YEARS and YEARS for us to become legal. In the meantime, what am I and people in my situtation suppose to do? I'm not even sure if I can be petitioned by a hospital employer once I graduate because I am out of status and it makes me sad everyday. I know there are people who think that people in my situation should go back to our "home" countries because we are adults now and should take responsibility. But I think that is absurd. I KNOW I am American. I can only speak ENGLISH. I have no memories of my home country. It is like waking up and having someone tell you that you are not really human and you must go to Mars where you originally came from because now you are an adult. Everything I have known is here in America. And I know that I only represent the minority of illegal immigrants, but that's exactly why I think this DREAM ACT should be enacted because people like me who are deserving and INNOCENT should not be caught in this limbo we cannot get out of. We did not commit any crimes like our parents did years ago. We are NOT criminals! I know I'm suppose to blame my parents yadda yadda and oh, I have inside since I found out I'm illegal, but after the blame, what can I do? I don't know where I should stand. I've come to love America like I was born here but at the same time, I'm being pushed in the shadows. I just wish that more people can stop trying to blame each other and have more heart for those like me who are innocent and caught in the middle of this hell hole of a bureaucratic immigration system. Anyway, I hope I don't get attacked after I post this by people who are against me! I simply just want to share my thoughts like everyone else and hopefully just hopefully gain the empathy of someone that is not in my shoes. Remember, the main issue here is about the people who were brought here illegally as CHILDREN. Thanks for reading.
I sympathize....somewhat (is that violins I hear?)
02 Jun 2005
"But I think that is absurd. I KNOW I am American. I can only speak ENGLISH. I have no memories of my home country. It is like waking up and having someone tell you that you are not really human and you must go to Mars where you originally came from because now you are an adult. Everything I have known is here in America. And I know that I only represent the minority of illegal immigrants, but that's exactly why I think this DREAM ACT should be enacted because people like me who are deserving and INNOCENT should not be caught in this limbo we cannot get out of."

(silence)

Your parents are to blame for your dilemma. They came here PRECISELY to create the situation you are now trying to argue. They have purposely laid eggs in an unwilling host, and the host is rejecting them. Your parents had the following responsibilities, and they failed to live up to them:

1. To tell you of your illegal status so that you might (as adults or teenagers) take steps to legitimize your presence in the United States.

2. To get citizenship FIRST, before ever getting pregnant, and to make a plan which did not violate laws or cause hardship on others.

3. To run from a situation which they could have stayed and possibly changed for the better.

We, as Americans have a responsibility to ourselves, our children, and our economy. Our laws are posted at every border crossing along the US/Mexico border, in both languages. Your parents chose to disregard those laws so that you could later say:

" I KNOW I am American. I can only speak ENGLISH. I have no memories of my home country."

THAT was the plan they made, and it wasnt a good plan. You will have to suffer for the failure of your parents. Americans are not responsible to your parents or their children (you). I sympathize with you, but I still do not support your solution to the problem. You will be given the chance to do what your parents never did: attempt legal citizenship. You may have to do this from your own country for a while, but you can apply and probably get your citizenship...given your circumstances.

You will have to be PATIENT. Follow the example of the other immigrants who have applied and eagerly
await the results of their applications. Do not take the arrogant stance of your parents and expect to be able to cut in line in front of immigrants from OTHER countries. You asked:

"this limbo we cannot get out of"

Limbo? You are a citizen of Mexico, not of the United States. Your "limbo" is the fact that you have been brought to a country and received a complete education, despite being an illegal. Consider that our gift....if you wish to return it, then apply what you have learned wherever you are.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
17 Jul 2005
Carlos Rodriguez is wrong because he said he was hispanic but here he is talking bad about illegal alien what gives you the right to talk that way. You better Respect jr ROTC.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
14 Oct 2005
It is hard to think of any child who wants to learn not being able to. The only way a lot of families can afford to send their children to college is by them paying in state tuition. College costs are so high, it is plain ridiculous. But that is the reality of life in America. While I can be sympathetic to the plight of the children of illegal immigrants, I think some very important persons are being left out of this equation. If we start allowing the children of illegal immigrants to attend college at in-state tuition prices, many of these coveted slots will be lost to a U.S. child. It is not the fault of the illegal immigrant child that their parent broke the law. But it is certainly not the fault of the American child. If anyone should guilt and be blamed for this predicament, it is their parents who came to the country illegally. I hope I am not sounding harsh. But we do have immigration laws. And all laws not only have penalties for breaking them. They have benefits to following them.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
14 Oct 2005
It is hard to think of any child who wants to learn not being able to. The only way a lot of families can afford to send their children to college is by them paying in state tuition. College costs are so high, it is plain ridiculous. But that is the reality of life in America. While I can be sympathetic to the plight of the children of illegal immigrants, I think some very important persons are being left out of this equation. If we start allowing the children of illegal immigrants to attend college at in-state tuition prices, many of these coveted slots will be lost to a U.S. child. It is not the fault of the illegal immigrant child that their parent broke the law. But it is certainly not the fault of the American child. If anyone should guilt and be blamed for this predicament, it is their parents who came to the country illegally. I hope I am not sounding harsh. But we do have immigration laws. And all laws not only have penalties for breaking them. They have benefits to following them.
Re: Living in the Shadows: Undocumented Children Strive to Succeed
16 Dec 2005
I feel horrible for illegal aliens. My boyfriend is illegal and I think it is horrible the whay people treat him and the way they have to cross the border to get here. It is so sad.
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