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News :: Politics
Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
Here are a few photos of the Boston anti-war protest 3-18-06. About 2,500 protesters marched from Roxbury to downtown Boston .
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March 18, 2006 Boston anti-war protest photos.
See also:
http://www.iacboston.org

This work is in the public domain.
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Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest
18 Mar 2006
At today’s demonstration in Boston the Workers World Party brought Democratic Party City Councilors to the microphone to address the crowd. But since this was a radical/liberal crowd….they had to leave off the fact that these men were in the Democratic Party.

Just as Workers World Party members leave out the fact that they are WWP members when they address a crowd, so do the people who they assembled the crowd for. So much deception for such a small party….

If Chuck Turner, and Tony Van Der Meer, are recognized leaders of the black community how come they can’t seem to motivate many black people to come to anti-war rallies? The rally started in Roxbury with an overwhelmingly white crowd. Does Democratic Party member Chuck Turner ask any black people to come to these rallies? Or is it just another stop for him on the speaking circuit. Workers World Party assembles the crowd and Chuck Turner arrives alone and seeks more votes for the Democratic Party.

As usual the speeches droned on and on, when the march got going it went in circles as the Workers World Party shouted inane lowest common denominator slogans. “Stop the Violence” Who claims to be violent? US Imperialism is the world’s biggest terrorist and they claim to be “peacekeepers.” “Stop the violence” as a slogan offends no one, and challenges no one.

After crawling through the city when the Workers World Party truck came upon activists sitting on the street in front of the Recruiting Station on Tremont Street they drove their truck through the protesters forcing them to break up their action. Who needs cops to clear protesters off the streets when Worker World Party will do it for them.

Then the Workers World driven trucks made their way up the hill through the Common, but some of the crowd wanted to stay in front of the Recruiting Station. Workers World people were not happy with this. They had a lot more speeches to give at the top of the hill. They urged people to get behind the truck, to get back in line, to listen to a carefully selected set of speakers who are friendly with Workers World, but the crowd kept melting away.

After waiting for ten, fifteen minutes, the Workers World drivers had to sadly drive their trucks away, some of the speakers had practiced their speeches for nothing. The demonstration was over, and it had not gone the way Workers World Party had planned it. But don’t expect to see any of these facts reported in the WWP press or web sites. Stalinists only report glowing victories.
PHOTOS - Stop the War March 3-18-06
18 Mar 2006
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Photos from the Stop the War March (3/18/06)
See also:
http://www.capedmaskedandarmed.com
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18 Mar 2006
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Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest
18 Mar 2006
chuck turner is a member of the green-rainbow party, not the democratic party. i agree that the march was over-weighted with white people and with communists, but it really wasn't organized by WWP, and it was organized largely by people of color, and there really was a huge outreach effort for underserved communities in boston.

i only went to one of the meetings, but from that i can tell that the rosa parks human rights day committee is definitely not a communist front. it's a very diverse group of people, including a lot of authoritarian communists but also including a lot of other kinds of people, but the one group that isn't represented is anti-authoritarians. the rosa parks people recognized this and actually invited anarchists, who really chose not to be involved in the organizing, to speak.

so yes, the rosa parks committee has obviously got some problems, but i think it's a lot more promising than any of the other boston coalitions in recent history and complaining about it won't help. anarchists, especially boston anarchists, won't get anywhere without working with other people, and i think that the rosa parks committee would actually be very grateful for our contributions if we decided to go to their meetings.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest
18 Mar 2006
Liam,
You are either the police and a coward or a crackhead who has an altered reality. You have become an internet political character assassin. Someone who takes a victory and turns it into a defeat is an enemy of the people! The Bushwackers couldn't have done a better job themselves. Karl Rove must be your father and the best part of you must have dripped down your mothers leg. Stop hiding behind a no verified email address you Bushwacking flunky.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest
18 Mar 2006
First a quick correction Liam:

"Democratic Party member Chuck Turner"- Check your facts Liam. Chuck is the ONLY councilor in Boston who is not a member of either ruling party. In fact Chuck is a member of the Green-Rainbow Coalition. Damn, if Dems were like Chuck we'd be in a much better spot than we are now. I do not blindlt support Chuck but I am ever so amazed at the Chuck bashing that goes on amongst the so called left. Do you know what he has done? Not just in the last 10 years but in his lifetime?

Also Felix and Sam did not say nor did the MC's say that the two councilors were Dems. Is that really germane to what they were speaking about? Not at all. The projects they are working on are meaningful and can have a positive impact on working communities in the city. Your angst towards them leads me to believe that you think a socialist/communist/anarchist (whatever floats your boat) would be able to make more change as city councilors. I can understand such feelings, but they are misguided. If you truly understand the rile of the Boston City Council you will see that what these guys are doing, especially Chuck who is organizing folks with the BWA, is worthy of respect. Not complete adherence to their politics mind you, but respect for what they are trying to do.

Furthermore what kind of power do you really think those two have in the Dem Pty? If they had any authority in the Dems, shit I would consider voting Dem.

Workers World... Workers World... Workers World
What can I really say? Like em or not I do not hold the fear that some marginal leftist organization is going to sweep up power and imprison everyone. Regardless of what they say or what people think they say. Their speakers identify themselves as members of branch groups of WW- what's the harm? yeah they can be dicks and they can get lost on their own power trips, but I've been around for a little while and I see that same crap whether it be an event organized by anarchists, socialists, communists, etc.

As to the number of people of color at the rally and march I must have different eyes than you.

I saw one of the most diverse groups of people at a rally than I have seen in a long time. I also think that people forget that whether you are organizing in communities of color or white communities, people in this nation are so beaten down and feel so powerless that they do not think marching and coming together for future organizing campaigns is important.

But notice the folks coming out of their homes and throwing their hands up in the air, (during this march and the last march organized by the Rosa Parks Committee). That shows you that the door knocking, community meetings throughout the past years, etc has built support in the community. I recall marching through Plymouth on Thanksgiving and getting the finger from folks coming outside their homes. That could have easily happened today but it did not. Why? The organizers did their work and built community support. That is what makes change, not just a big march (though it does feel good to have one), but a strong base in the community.

Let me end this diatribe-thanks if you've read this far...
We're human beings and we have egos and we make mistakes. What we need is CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM. Let's use this independent media tool to not just report the news but also to give feedback which will help make the next rally, the next march, the next court solidarity call, the next union solidarity action, stronger and more effective.

We do not have to agree on how the world will be after the revolution to hit the streets and create a culture of expressing dissent. Without that we have nothing.


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My own thoughts on how the next time can be better?

Shorten the rally. We have lots of people with good messages. Fitting them in all at once drains the crowd and convolutes the messages. Split it up. Some people should speak pre march and some speak post march.

Shorten the march- 2 1/2 hours is a long walk in the cold (I confess I had to leave early today to do some work). Longer marches are great in the warm weather, winter time ...eh, it can dissuade people from coming back I think.
more pictures
18 Mar 2006
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18 Mar 2006
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Re: PHOTOS - Stop the War March 3-18-06
19 Mar 2006
I had a good time, as strange as that sounds. It was empowering to be amongst others involved in the struggle, yet saddening to realize that another day's gone by and we're still fighting in this war. It also bummed me out that the turn-out wasn't as large as I had expected it to be. It seems that more and more people are getting caught in this web of tangled powerlessness, unwilling to come to a rally to voice their thoughts. Nonetheless, thanks to all who helped make this event happen as well as to those who showed up with courage to stand for their beliefs. PEACE
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest
19 Mar 2006
Great rally and march today, great turnout ( finally) but Liam does vaguely make a point. There were not a whole lot of brown faces in the crowd, andI may be wrong, but based on the people I talked to while I was marching, it seemed like most of the people weren't even from the city of Boston. Better organizing maybe next time ..
Re: PHOTOS - Stop the War March 3-18-06
19 Mar 2006
Right on brothers and sisters! You are part of a global movement to end war, and your efforts today are not in vain!

We marched through Hollywood, CA today. Check out the photos for that at http://la.indymedia.org
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
I stand corrected, Chuck Turner is not a member of the Democratic party. But Sam Yoon and Felix Arroyo?

I am not a character assasin...I know nothing about the characters of the Capitalist politicians who spoke from the platform Workers World provided them. They are putting their views forward in a public place and should expect to be evaluated and criticized. This is what democracy looks like.....

The Rosa Parks Committee (by the way they never would have called themselves that when she was alive - they would have been sued) is a creation of Workers World Party. WWP provides the backbone of the organization, and they do all the donkey work. The group may be diverse, but so is Workers World Party.

In my post I called the US Imperialists "the worlds biggest terrorist." Does that sound like something a police agent does. We have seen the work "police agent" volulteers have done on this site getting Anarchist events cancelled through informing event hall owners of Anarchist events. Police agents do not post valid criticisms of other progressive/leftist forces.

It was good that the demonstration started in Roxbury. Workers World Party does try to orient toward black people, they do try to orient towards working class people. But why do they have to hide who they are? After a few months of being around leftist demosntrations in Boston anyone will begin to figure out that WWP has a number of front groups that are like a farm system for WWP. They hope you will join the lesser group out of interest, and if you meet their requirements they will try to get you to join WWP. But why do they have to lie about it?

The demonstration had maybe 5% black people, despite the photographic images trying to make the crowd seem mostly black. Why the trickery? Does WWP think that if they can present an image of what they hope the anti-war movement could look like it will come true.

I would welcome the day when an anti-war movement would march out of Roxbury with thousands of black people. The Capitalist rulers would be scared.

But I don't think it is good to lie about it. The crowd was about 400 to 500 people. If Arroyo, Yoon, and Turner are leaders of the minority communities how come they come virtually alone to these demonstrations. Do they have any pull? Do they call people up to get them to come? Do they arrange busses from their neighborhoods to bring people to the demonstration? Or is it just another place to pick a some votes from Radical/liberals?
How come Turner never marches into the demostration with two humdred black people behind him - doesn't he have the pull?
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
um, look at the last name on the list below-

"These groups - and others - will meet on Thursday, July 29, for an event titled: "Building the Progressive Wing of the Democratic Party." It will be held at Roxbury Community College. This 'progressive convention' will feature talks and panel discussions with speakersrepresenting the diversity of our movement. This includes individuals such as: Gov. Howard Dean (D-Vermont); Cynthia Peters, Fund the Dream DNC Coalition; Representative Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio); Representative John Conyers (D-Michigan); Representative Jesse Jackson Jr. (D-Illinois) (invited); Doris "Granny D" Haddock, Senatorial Candidate (D- New Hampshire); Reverend Jesse Jackson, Executive Director Rainbow/Push Coalition (invited); Dr. James Zogby, Founder and President of the Arab American Institute; Marianne Williamson, Global Renaissance (invited); Kevin Spidel, Progressive Vote; Boston Councilman Chuck Turner (District 7). Other names will be announced shortly."

http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/0720-06.htm

I think liam's comment is totally on point.

Chuck Turner boycotted October 29th because they would not endorse his "principles of peace" which called the use of UN troops. Yet the next day he was hanging out on the common with John Fucking Kerry at a rally that didn't allow any anti-war signs.

He's a liberal in radical clothing.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
It was a great protest. Well organized, great diversity of speakers, good mix of people and high energy level. WWP did a great job of bringing the movement to the people most affected.

The press on the event is just terrible. The Globe has reprinted an AP story that mentions the boston protest as "a few hundred people". What a piece of shit paper, they can't even send a reporter down to interveiw people and snap a few pics.

As for the cops that are floating around here, trying to bring division and negativity to the movement, ignore them. Anybody who thinks "Police agents do not post valid criticisms of other progressive/leftist forces" is a cop. Got to hell fascist drone.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
i wasn't there but from my experience with the WWP, i can see them doing all this shit. they really piss me off.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
The event went well, thank you everyone! It was a brilliant day despite the central planners over at WWP/answer/IAC who have a history of shamelessly using people of color and the important issue of racism to further their authoritarian communist goals. To make the day batter next time the event and march should be far shorter. I did like the fact that the march started in Roxbury though, and the fact that it was organized by and in a community of color and that white folks had to trek outside of their comfort zone for once.

Also legitimate criticism of an organization or event does not equal cops trying to “divide” the movement. WWP/answer/IAC are very problematic both in their top down structure and in their possessions on many issues relating to communist human rights abuse and dictators of the past etc. Hopefully those groups can be marginalized in the next Rosa Parks Committee event.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
"Farm system" haha

I had a pretty good day, it was nice out and I got to take a long walk with friends. I guess I'm not terribly worried about who's a statist and who's from out of town and who's a secretive vanguardist because I have no illusions that anything we can do at a march or rally is going to change anything. For me it was an opportunity to talk to others in the struggle--running into old friends and meeting new people, and hopefully enough of us spoke with or at least shared information with curious bystanders that a few more people will be motivated to educate themselves and think about what they can do to help change what's been happening.

The work of movement building is what happens in between these events. The quality of the demonstrations are only going to be a reflection of the quality of that work. I'm sure I was as disinterested as Liam and others in the content of many of the speeches, and as disappointed in the particulars of the march's turnout. But for me the next step isn't to be angry at WWP and affiliated groups for the politics they do have and the hard work they do put in--it's a recommitment to spreading what I feel are better politics, and better political practices.

Simultaneous wishes for more anarchists (for example) and more POC aren't both going to be fulfilled if the anarchist movement grows but its current methodology and race and class composition stay intact. That dilemma, more than the lameness of a particular party, is where your concerns should be addressed if you'd like the overall impact of authoritarian politics on the development of a mass-based revolutionary movement to be lessened.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
When is the time for criticism and evaluation? Only police criticize?

I have been on Union picket lines blocking a worksite with a WWP Picket captain. I followed his instructions and voiced no criticisms. I have been on picket lines were the Union bureaucrats wore US flags on their lapels and I kept my mouth shut.

There is no doubt in my mind that WWP involvement in a couple of Unions in this city has helped the workers in those unions get higher wages and better benefits. I have been at many WWP initiated demonstrations. I have on several occasions joined with other militants chanting against Fascist/Nazis who have been showing up at WWP initiated rallies with regularity. When I’ve been shoulder to shoulder with my fist in the air chanting “Nazis Out” I don’t take time to criticize the ISOer, or the Pler on either side of me.

A day or so after the US invasion of Afghanistan I was at an anti-war rally called by WWP. When the rally started there were about 20 people. I was next to a sign that said “US IMPERIALISM WORLDS BIGGEST TERRORIST” This was not long after 9/11. More than half the people driving by City Hall Plaza on Cambridge St had US flags on their cars. I was expecting to have people attack the demo and beat us up. I was glad their were about 10 WWP people there. I was not voicing criticism or asking why they support Kim Jong Il without criticism. I had my eyes open for right wing attacks of the physical kind.

Being a leftist or progressive does not mean you give up your right to criticize. This forum has a comments section to allow the free exchange of ideas, not just for gushing praise, and cheer leader boosterism.

Freedom to Comment, Freedom to Question, Freedom to Criticize
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
Spock: My Black-dar counts a high concentration of melanin in the skin of a large minority of protestors at the event.
Kirk: Excellent. This must have been a succesful demo. Mao will be pleased.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
Good points Liam, so posters on IMC get a little carried away with accusations when someone critiques a demo/rally/ or viewpoint. I guess some people are just unwilling to be flexible in their political dogma. Anyway, to the poster who accused u of being "da man", I personally thought the cops were pretty good yesterday, or as good as they could be. I only saw one cop get pissed and that was when some anarchist kids surrounded his motorcycle and blocked his path.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
I didn't see any problems with the Cops, I did see a cop tell a youthful arborist to get out of a tree, I was glad the young man wasn't arrested. You can only get away with tree climbing when there are many, many thousands of people, and the cops have other worries. And truth be told, that demostration seemed to have about three to four hundred people in Roxbury with the first speeches, and when it went down Park Street along the Common it looked like a nice tight 500. Why exagerate? People who were there know the truth, or don't they count? Many leftist progressives seem to think the only people who matter are the mainstream average apolitical people. Everything has to be tailored to mainstream think. So why do demonstrations get smaller every year - where is the awakened mainstream?

The Incredible Shrinking Anti-War Movement

In ‘03 from 10,000,000 to 15,000,000 people around the world demonstrated against US Imperialisms War Against Iraq. Many on the left claimed that if we could just get enough people marching down the streets of the capitals of the Imperialist powers we could make them stop the war. But despite the large numbers of people in the streets the war was not delayed by one minute.

The only actions that showed the way to stop the war machine were in the UK were some Unionized train workers in Scotland refused to move war material, in Italy Unionized workers and leftist protesters blocked rail shipments to a large military base involved in the invasion plans. Isaac Duetscher, a Communist activist and Marxist scholar, said during the Vietnam War that one dockworkers strike against the war was worth a thousand student anti-war protests in the park.

We need Labor Strikes Against the War. Just calling for people to take to the streets, as the WWP does, or trying to get people to Vote Green as the ISO is now doing (hoping for a less Capitalist party to face off against the Democrats) does not lay the foundation for a real chance to oppose Capitalist Imperialisms wars.

That’s why there is something pointless about following a Workers World Party sound truck up and down streets hoping that people will spontaneously join the march.

That’s why demonstrations have been getting smaller and smaller each year as the war goes on. In the US the Democratic Party and its radical/liberal fringe is the grave yard of social movements. Why go to a rally to be told in a round about way that since Bush is the enemy you should logically support the Democratic alternative? Many people stop going to demonstrations and just vote Democrat.

In London in ‘03 some reports put the crowd size at the anti-war protest ant 1,000,000. In today’s news they report that “In London, police said 15,000 people joined a march Saturday from Parliament and Big Ben to a rally in Trafalgar Square. The anniversary last year attracted 45,000 protesters in the city.”

“Protests in other countries also fell short of organizers' hopes”

Read for yourself at http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060319/ap_on_re_as/iraq_war_protests_world;_ylt=AsBQOGYPtvXfx7OtqVijZ2is0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

It’s the kind of “leadership” and Stalinist organizing methods that the WWP (and their ilk internationally) utilizes that lead to demonstrations around the world becoming smaller, and smaller.

But note this from the AP story about anti-war demonstrations around the world getting smaller “Saturday's anti-war protests in Europe were dwarfed by the half-million people who demonstrated in France against proposed labor law reforms” People will come out and fight for there rights as workers. We need to begin by making the call for Union Stikes Against the War….while strikes are not going to happen tomorrow they will never happen if we don’t begin by calling for them and raising possibilities in workingclass circles.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
Quoting AP stories will really make your point. Also, I heard no one talking about the dems or how we should join the dems. If you hate protests so much and find them useless, why do you go?
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
The highlight of my day had to be when I attempted to confront the counterprotesters, getting physically restrained and "moved along" by peace police. The *real* police loved this, because the "left wing vanguard" was doing what they could not, as no law was being broken. Thank you peace police, for without you, we might actually get something done, and we can't have that. After all, the goal here isn't to do anything worthwhile, but rather sell newspapers, right?
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
I have seen the WWP/answer "peace police" demo security rush to protect the Nazis/fascists who show up a lot lately at WWP advertised demos. Why don't they just look the other way, or protect the podium, if they can't join the confrontation to protect the demo from the Right wingers? I salut you for trying to confront the right.

I think the most heroic people of the day were those who sat down on the street in front of the Recruiting Office. It was spontanious as far as I knew, and it was over by the time I got to Tremont Street. But why did the Rosa Parks Cmt. rear guard truck drive through this spontaneous blockaid?

I was at a bus strike picket line a few years back when fire engine drove slowly past the picket line. In front of the bus ramp the firefighters got off the engine and raised the hood. They told the cops it was stalled. The head cop exploded and they got back on the fire truck and moved it away from blocking the scab busses. Those Unionized firefighters had good impulses and came upon that Union picket line by chance, but they immediately knew what to do. Picket lines mean don't cross....they didn't even want to cross in front of it. They stopped and joined the picket line to block the scab busses. Did the WWP driver have the leftist impulse to honor the impromptue sit down? No. ,(I'll bet anything that the drivers of both sound trucks lead and rear were trusted WWP cadre.) What was going through the sound truck drivers head. Maybe the cops were yelling at him/her to keep the vehicle moving. Or maybe they thought the sit in was not "officially" approved and should be broken up.

Also what's the explanation for the demonstration petering out halfway across the Common as the crowd tricked back to were the action was in front of the Recruiting Office. Or do WWP and their defenders claim that the people bravely sitting down while surrounded by cops are "splitters and wreckers" who are tricked by police agents into dividing the demonstration and forcing WWP/ Rosa Parks Cte. to go home early with left over speeches.
Re: PHOTOS - Stop the War March 3-18-06
19 Mar 2006
awesome picks! and continue the struggle. although sometimes it might feel like it doesn't make a difference, I could see in the pedestrians faces that they were happy "someone out there" was protesting. Even if it's just ritualistic, it does make a difference. It isn't just us but people around the world who are fighting for peace. thanks everyone who came...
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
All I know is that I sat down, and within two minutes, the peace police were demanding that we move along. On the sidewalk, the rest of those who were chanting "solidarity!" and "stand together as one," either walked away or just stood there, staring at us. Only one person was concerned enough to ask where our legal observers were, and when we said we didn't have any, he got the attention of one. At that point, some WWP/Rosa Parks organizer went over to start talking with the cops who proceeded to move on us. With no identified legal observer, and obviously nobody willing to join us, or at least bail us out if we got arrested, we were forced onto the sidewalk.

Sure, the authoritarian commies are quick to call anarchists and any other free thinkers who don't fall in line with them, part of the "bourgeoisie," but what does that make the cops? I ask, because they obviously didn't have as much of a problem with them as us.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
I was standing behind the line of police on bikes and the organizer (the one leading the march) having spoken to the group who sat down in the middle of the road for less then a minute, then proceeded to the police and told them, in similar words "they" are out of my hands, you can do whatever you like. It seems to me that the organizers didn't really care about the event and was just going through the motion with the march to Boston Common.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
"officially approved", by that do you mean that other people getting input into the action besides yourselves before they should be forced to support it because you decide it's a good idea to stop before their truck? Great fucking idea; way to try to co-opt part of a march that you had nothing to do with as far as organizing...

and all the bullshit about anarchists being excluded from the organizing... they were open fucking organizing meetings! No one is saying you have to organize it if you don't have the time, but don't fucking try to pull out some kind of vangaurdist sit-down manuever without consulting anyone else and then demand solidarity... fucking bullshit.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
If you're going to do direct action and you don't tell anyone beforehand, don't feel entitled to legal observers or medics. "Only one person was concerned enough to ask where our legal observers were, and when we said we didn't have any, he got the attention of one." Everyone else at the demo is not your babysitter. Same goes for the march organizers not going out of their way to plead with the cops on your behalf. For all they knew you attached yourself to their march in the hopes that the crowd that they organized could serve as a cover for your plan. You didn't get that cover, so now you're going for the next-best result: getting to complain on the internet that their actions were authoritarian.

You lot are why so many organizers write anarchists off as bourgeois. Unfortunately it affects the rest of us too. I'm no fan of protest marshalls but your vanguardism and sense of entitlement is every bit as bad as theirs.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
marching is not going to stop the war. Which is why people need to do more than just march. Which is why people need to be supportive of each others actions. We need to encourage people to be creative and resist. The rest of the world seems to understand this. In France, students have taken over the universities, and the unions are threatining to declare general strike if the government doesnt back down. There are strikes and rioting in Greece, and popular resistance and solidarity in Mexico and South America. This is why our antiwar movement never became effectual, and it wont until we actually start resisiting. George Bush and the war machine will not fear our marching. If we cant show each other solidarity for such a simple action as a sitdown in front of a recruitment center, how can we expect to have a strong enough movement to stop a war?
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
19 Mar 2006
FYI: The short blockade of Tremont Street was 100% spontaneous and 100% in solidarity with the rest of the march. The blockaders felt it and the organizers knew it, and diversity of tactics thrived for a good 5 minutes. Which is more than most of these parades have seen in the last two years.
Photo Essay - March 18th Anti-War Rally and March
20 Mar 2006
antiwar_speaker.jpg
antiwar_bagwithpolice.jpg
greed=death.jpg
antiwar_manwithrosa.jpg
antiwar_dancingtriangle.jpg
antiwar_2men_megaphone.jpg
antiwar_bullhorn.jpg
antiwar_flowers_motorcycle.jpg
antiwar_crowdshot.jpg
antiwar_middlefinger.jpg
antiwar_lonemarcher.jpg
Photo Essay - March 18th Anti-War Rally and March
See also:
http://metropolmedia.net
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
there were so many cameras there, are those alllll the fotos of the boston protest??
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
"...": Of course marching is not going to stop the war, that's why in my first comment on this story I said "I have no illusions that anything we can do at a march or rally is going to change anything". I'm glad you recognize it. But you're going to have to go a lot further afield than "marching and then sitting down in the road" before you start getting into effective actions. You've merely exchanged one symbolic action for another. It's a little silly to pretend that when you go from standing up to sitting down you're transforming the action to something comparable to a work stoppage or urban uprising. If people can suspend their solidarity long enough to criticize the organizers of the march I can suspend mine long enough to say this.

I don't think people shouldn't have sat down, I'm just saying that if you're going to do something like that you really shouldn't complain that the group you never worked with won't spontaneously decide to lend their vehicle to your road blockade, an organizer you never spoke with won't negotiate with cops on your behalf, and legal observers you never warned aren't present to monitor the situation.

"Participant": I'm glad it was in solidarity. What exactly does that mean to you? What does it mean that the organizers "knew it"? How do you think they should have responded? And as for its spontaneity, that's neither a positive or a negative quality in my mind as far as political actions go, but you should probably acknowledge that it was just an attempt to recreate the exact action that was tried last year. (They'll never expect this one!) If you want people to stay sitting down next time you might want to have some communication ahead of time.

"Diversity of tactics" was the name of a strategy some of us used to push for during the planning stages of summit protests. The more people we could convince a many-centered, many-directed, tactically diverse street action was the most effective way to achieve our shared strategic objective (to disrupt the meetings themselves), the broader the solidarity individual groups would recieve if they got in a spot of trouble for using their particular tactic (infiltrating the meeting, intersection lockdowns, street theater/puppets, property destruction, die ins, active defense against police, guerilla gardening, public debate, etc). In the absence of that kind of communication or shared short-range strategic goal, simply to go to an event where people are doing one symbolic thing, spontaneously do another symbolic thing, and then sulk about how the first set of people don't support "diversity of tactics" is a shameful parody of that idea.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
Salut to all,
Indeed, marching does not seem to be very effective in stopping the war machine. The unions,workers and students of Boston need to be more involved! Or are the unions and students absolutely sold out to the system? Why is it that over 100,000 people can march in a parade for St. Patricks day in Boston, and we can not even get 1000 people to march against the fascist war machine state?!?!
Check ou the site http//www.libcom.org/blog/ The French students, Unions and workers are in a major revolt. Over3/4 of the universities have been taken over by the students. Over a million people have taken to the streets to show their anger against the State!! There is a nation wide general strike in the planning.
This is just a little food for thought.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
oh there were enough students.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
"the rosa parks people recognized this and actually invited anarchists, who really chose not to be involved in the organizing, to speak."

This is just not true. NEFAC contacted the coalition to offer our endorsement, which was apparently denied. BAAM organized a contingent to participate. I don't know if they also tried to offer an endorsement, but would not be surprised if they were also rejected. So much for reaching out to anarchists...
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
didn't they invite an anarchist to speak? did anything come of that? i wasnt paying attention to the spaekers
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
yes, there was a slot for anarchist speakers and they were heard loud and clear right before the march... But I guess there's more than one anarchist group in Boston... and that's a good thing.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
"NEFAC contacted the coalition to offer our endorsement, which was apparently denied."

Is this why you folks didn't show up?
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
Who exactly did NEFAC talk to about endorsing March 18 or is this just more trash talk from the likes of Liam and Nick?
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
i met up with the demonstration at the state house and i was stunded by the low numbers of the turnout. shame on the boston activist community for not coming out.
Any Movement That Doesn't Fight for 9-11 Truth is Doomed to Fail
20 Mar 2006
www.911revisited.com
www.st911.org

Sick of bullshit movements that have more to do with selling papers and recruiting members than fighting the real problems? Then get down with 9-11 Truth. It's the only way left to stop the world from being destroyed by the criminals in power. If you're not fighting for 9-11 truth, you either don't have a clue what's really going on or you are following some BS internationalist program that could care less that the American people are under attack from their own government. Don't trust anyone who doesn't think 9-11 is the elites' achilles heel.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
Curiouser and curiouser……

I admit I’m wrong when I called Chuck Turner a Democrat, then another poster provides the facts of Turner working with a group of populists in the Democratic Party, he glad hands John Kerry after showing up at the Common for a Democratic Party Election Rally where no anti-Iraq War signs are allowed

When I criticize Workers World Party, and all the groups it controls in its vast constellation of groups “who are totally independent of Workers World Party“ (they just happen to have the same phone number), the only answer the WWP people and their co-thinkers can come back at me with is that I am a cop. They never answer any points raised for discussion. If you criticize the classic Stalinist methods employed by WWP you are a COINTELPRO secret police agent.

Now through these posts we find out that WWP turned the activists who sat down in front of the Recruiting Office over to the police. What gall. You call other people cops …..while you turn to the cops to police your demonstration. Did you mention COINTELPRO to the cops when you told them you couldn’t move the disobedient protesters who sat down without a permit.

WWP should offer a public apology to the protesters it told to move, and then told the police they couldn’t handle them. I trust the militant impulses of the people who sat down spontaneously over the manipulative Stalinism of the Workers World Party.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
Liam, when I got the ABC concert cancelled, I didn't get the idea from the police. I got the idea from "One People's Project." After discovering how communists try to do a denial of service attack against bands they hate, I thought it would be funny to do the same thing.

So you have only the OPP Admin to blame for that one.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
We sat down, because that's what we always do. We didn't plan to do it (that I know of), and weren't attempting to exclude anyone. We asked people to join us, but didn't demand that they had to. There were non-anarchists that joined us in the street, and there were possibly anarchists who did not. I'm not bothered by the fact that there were people who didn't want to take part in it, but rather at the ones in control who not only didn't care, but turned on us. The police don't need the extra incentive to bust us.
Now there's communists telling us that we're vanguardists? If you think that, then YOU must be the bourgeois, cause that's rich.
8:(I)
20 Mar 2006
Yeah.

(ooh ooh ahh ahh)
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
"Now there's communists telling us that we're vanguardists?"

I'm pretty sure you're referring to me. I'm an anarchist. You should probably reread my previous comments directed to you bearing in mind that I'm an anarchist--when I say "the rest of us" I'm talking about other anarchists.

"We sat down, because that's what we always do."

That's just sad.

"We asked people to join us, but didn't demand that they had to."

Well you did sit down in front of their truck.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
I think these events would get more turn out if people didn't glom on every possible issue to an anti-war protest.

Lots of people are anti-war, but don't want to be associated with the morons spouting Mao.

Why muddle the message by tacking on everyone's little pet cause?
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
i agree, war exists in a total fucking vacuum.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
Yea, its kind of messed up that we have a little internal war over how best to oppose a war. I know we are all frustrated at this point, but we need to keep our focus on the issue. Most of the country is now against this war and we need to show them that it is a process that will repeat it self if we don't change the underlying social structures. But, we can be cool about it and not force people to read our newspapers or reject all forms of politics.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
Chip I share your anger at the way the demo organizers treated your heroic sit down. But why blame all communists and even innocent “authoritarians.” There were many Marxist/Socialist groups at the demo, it wasn’t the International Socialists, the Spartacists, Progressive Labor, or the Socialist Workers Party who sicced the cops on you. It was a very specific party - Workers World Party. By blaming ALL communists/socialists ( Authoritarians if you like) you are letting the Workers World Party and their Rosa Parks org of the hook.


Earlier ‘Mike P’ wrote an eyewitness account of the Workers World Party leader handing you over to the cops. He wrote:

“I was standing behind the line of police on bikes and the organizer (the one leading the march) having spoken to the group who sat down in the middle of the road for less then a minute, then proceeded to the police and told them, in similar words "they" are out of my hands, you can do whatever you like”

That was most likely Steve K. of Workers World Party. At an earlier demonstration someone called him “that guy with the bullhorn” telling every one what to do. You may have seen him at an earlier demonstration sing Bob Dylan’s “Masters of War” as he strummed guitar on the Workers World Party sound truck. His performance failed to stop the war.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
"Who exactly did NEFAC talk to about endorsing March 18 or is this just more trash talk from the likes of Liam and Nick?"


Here's the email, which went unanswered:

---------------------------- Original Message
----------------------------
Subject: endorsing the march
From: "Boston NEFAC" <nefacboston (at) nefac.net>
Date: Thu, February 2, 2006 2:02 pm
To: "rosaparksday (at) brphrd.com" <rosaparksday (at) brphrd.com>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello. Our organization, the Northeastern Federation of
Anarchist-Communists (NEFAC), has agreed to endorse the Rosa Parks
Memorial March and we would be interested in helping out however we can
(flyering for the march, clean up, etc.). Please let us know how we can
best participate.

Solidarity,
----XXXX (Boston NEFAC)
Oink! Oink!
20 Mar 2006
Liam is a Liar like greoge bush and a coward because he hides behind the internet.Its easy to criticize but harder to lead by example, Liam has no example to learn form, just his disinformation on this site. Ithink I smell barbecue, oink! oink!

I when to where the youth sat down in front of the amry recruitment center, along with Steve K. We disagreed with the action because it disrupted the march. We supported their right to do sit down, and wanted to make sure that they did't get hurt. I called Pepe who was talking with those that sat down and told him that this is a united front, they have a right to do that, and they we are concern that they don't get hurt.

It would have been better if they would have taken their actions at the very end of the march. It this is the kind of action that they want to do, let them organized it an do it, but don't divide us when we are trying to make a united front statement against the war at home and aboard. The other thing is, why didn' they stay and get arrested to truly demostrate civil disobedience? Othewise what was the point. By the way, steve K or myself didn't ask them to move. In fact I like the spirit of the young people, I just thought it was untimely and it broke the disciple of the march and put us in a situation that could have gotten people hurt.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
even if you count the pigs there was no way that this was 2500 people.
lets be honest with ourselves
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
20 Mar 2006
Brad wrote:

"Yea, its kind of messed up that we have a little internal war over how best to oppose a war. I know we are all frustrated at this point, but we need to keep our focus on the issue. Most of the country is now against this war and we need to show them that it is a process that will repeat it self if we don't change the underlying social structures. But, we can be cool about it and not force people to read our newspapers or reject all forms of politics."

Brad, I totally agree with you. I also don't understand the need for people to bash others on the internet. By labeling Chuck Turner this and that or whoever else with this name or that name, doesn't it prevent people from focusing on the important matters at hand? Maybe I'm narrow-minded but it seems to me that complaining about others' lack of leadership who are involved in the same struggle isn't going to accomplish anything.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
That was
one of the MOST diverse rallys and marches I have seen since childhood - GREAT WORK! Many thanks to the kindness and stability of Bishop T, and the artists added into the mix are greatful, Askia.

Folk can try to tear us all apart in pieces vertually by e-mail, but they'll not succeed, dont be troubled

The "white" will not stay on top, the "brown" will not stay down - we're all about to evolve as a "race". Race is a construct, a lie of control. A left- over from the past, best disposed of as a value measurment or a label used by outsiders seeking control.

We Know Who We Are.
The Human Race.
Join Us!

The concept of evolving as a society, as a people, is scary for some folks who say they want freedom but then join "parties" with rules. in and out. who is a "real" xyz...
and I mean all of them - I mean ALL "parties" and factions and other binary football games we play.
I mean us, we who are caught up in competing for the place in the sun, and fighting amongst ourselves..? shame on us ;-) as my momma says "...Cut the Crap."

being dang Crabs in the Bucket, as Mel King say

Personally, thus far I cant see much fun going on at _any_ of these "parties" - and I love to party,
so prove me wrong. Have some fun. Where is the Love? and all that!

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK folks
- its the START of CHANGE in Boston.. and true change takes diplomacy, Sustained Listening, and making friends. Remember Friends? what a concept!

These are Exciting Times.
but then, being human beings, ALL TIMES are exciting times! Taking our opportunity to uplift and support each other daily is a way to organise and build a free world to continue life, and to live in.

I am not "religious" but blessings are in order.
So from my heart:
Bless everyone who marched the entire way.
Bless every "shopper" and "looky-loo" who stood on the side taking photos to show other people that somebody marched - yes, even that role helps.
Bless the Anti-Recruters, and that father with his dead son's boots and tags & funeral photo.
Bless the organisers, and earth give them strength to do many different actions here in Boston.
Bless the black and brown young women and men who led us - YOUTH at the front...
Bless the white and jewish young men from JP bearing plastic and wooden drums and drumming.
Bless the older black man in the small townhouse projects we passed who had his fist in the air and tears streaming down his cheeks.
Bless the gay youth working in the south end who came out of that fancy coffeeshop to March with us, in solidarity.
Bless the @narchist & communist & whateverist brothers and sister human beings who stood the cold there at Dudley & Blue Hill Ave, in solidarity.

Ah!
lets Dance and be Free in Joy and organise to LIVE and BREATH and SURVIVE the daily struggle and the crisis threatening our sacred environment here on Earth.

Ill see you around. Dancing, I hope!
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
When a Stalinist calls you a cop…..


So the “Great and Powerful OZ” Tony Van cannot fathom left wing criticism of Workers World Party. “Only the police would criticize Workers World Party.” I got most of my information about the impromptu sit down from messages on this board. Are all these posters who criticized the demo and WWP ( Wes, Not a dem? noah, j5, Annoyed, Chip, Mike P., Participant, anarchocommie, nefac member, for example) in some kind of Police Academy that’s out to get Workers World Party ? I read these boards to learn things. I certainly wouldn’t expect to learn anything from the Stalinists WWP you are a Fellow Traveler with.

It wasn’t me who claims to be an eye witness to Steve K. “Bullhornman” telling the cops the sit down protesters were out of control that was “Mike P.” he said “I was standing behind the line of police on bikes and the organizer (the one leading the march) having spoken to the group who sat down in the middle of the road for less then a minute, then proceeded to the police and told them, in similar words "they" are out of my hands, you can do whatever you like. It seems to me that the organizers didn't really care about the event and was just going through the motion with the march to Boston Common.” Is he a Cop, too?

Do cops complain when Stalinists hand demonstrators over to them?

Note that when Prof Tony Van says I am a “liar like george bush” he leaves the Democratic Party out. Just Bush is a liar? Just about the entire Democratic Party went along with the War Against Iraq because they support Capitalism and the Imperialism it needs to survive. But Workers World Party and its pals like Tony Van cozy up to people who look to the Democrats as a progressive party.

Tony Van claims that he and Steve K had to alert the police to the out of control sit down protest - because he was afraid the militants would get hurt. I wasn’t a part of the action, when I got to Tremont Street it was over. But when I got there I didn’t go to the Cops to negotiate the arrests of the protester. That’s what WWP leader Steve K did. As Tony Van writes, “don't divide us when we are trying to make a united front statement against the war at home and aboard. The other thing is, why didn' they stay and get arrested to truly demostrate civil disobedience? Othewise what was the point” Prof Van, when people go to a demonstration in a public place they don’t give up their rights to Workers World Party. You don’t own the demonstration. Why didn’t the WWP organizers (aka R.Parks) simply drive their trucks around the demonstrators and up the hill through the Common and finish all the ‘ready to eat’ speeches they had in the can?

And Prof Van, I don’t know what you teach, I know it’s not Logic, or a hard Science, and probably not Composition (because then you’d know how to use Spell check) but you might want to go to the library and get a book on Rhetoric….the argument that “You’re a cop, you’re a cop, you’re a cop” will only earn you points with the hidebound Stalinists of the Workers World Party. Again I ask….when you and Steve K were talking to the Police in front of the Recruitment Center did you mention CONINTELPRO? Did you tell them you smelled bacon? Or are you respectful and polite around real Police (they might be Democratic voters, just like you.)

Read what Wikipedia has to say about WWP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%5FWorld%5FParty
Here’s an article about WWP from World Socialist Web Site http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/oct2000/work-o12.shtml
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
Why so troubled? who knows WHO is writing up in here? If I use the e-mail address of a black vet, am I a black vet? If I use the lingo of a freedom minded person "informing thwe community" am I a freedom minded person ?

the old song: "It Aint/ Nessisarally/ So..."
hey, I cant spell, either... LOL!

Folk can try to tear us all apart in pieces vertually by e-mail, but they'll not succeed, dont be troubled

We Know Who We Are.
The Human Race.
Join Us!
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
It is sad that some have nothing positive to say about a great anti-war action. Instead they use the opportunity to post 9 negative diatribes, through around the term "stalinists" very loosely, insist that the reckless actions of a few (sit it) are more important than the hundreds, and use any problems to construct a cult of personality around themselves. Get over yourselves.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
Well, I'm not very involved in anti-war organizing, but I did attend Saturday's event. I hope you'll take my comments as the constructive criticisms they're intended to be, and not call me a cop or whatever.

Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with others in that the beginning press conference and the march should both be shortened.

I don't really think that the beginning part qualifies as a rally - it was nothing like any rally I've been to. I couldn't see the speakers because of the video cameras. So, I tried to move up closer, and was told (not asked; told) to put my sign down because it was blocking the camera.

What is more important here? The cameras, or pumping up the rally participants?

And the speakers....Wow. I came to the event excited, even after walking a really really long distance from the Roxbury Crossing T stop (why was it so far away from public transportation??). But the speakers actually made me un-excited.

Finally, I would like to suggest having a little more focus to the event. Perhaps people didn't come because they didn't really understand what we were protesting. I'll admit that I originally thought it was an anti-war protest, but there must have been about 2 dozen causes that we were against. Can't an anti-war protest just be against the war? I understand there are a ton of significant issues that must be addressed - but I think they end up confusing a vast majority of people, and more importantly, confusing the message.

That's all for now. :) Thanks for listening/reading.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
"(why was it so far away from public transportation??)"

It's called transit racism... a lot of people have to live it every day.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
(Sorry for the double post).

"It's called transit racism... a lot of people have to live it every day. "

Okay...so that means it's a good idea, to hold a rally far away from public transportation? Is that really a way to get more people to participate?
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
sorry for double posting too. sigh. it auto re-posts if you return to the post-data page w back button, so ya gotta use top of page and return to page in a loop to post anew.

anyhoo, transit racism sucks, women and men and children takle a bus to a bus to the Train everyday, and thouse of us more fortunate do not know about this. its amazing. I think more rallys could happen all over, shorterones, that did feeder marches in to a central area, 1 short and passionate GOOD speech from youth and elders standing together, then the mass march.
...just my two cents after thinking it over more.

Love & Peace
are real principles
Amatul
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
I agree with the feeder marches model. I imagine it's pretty hard to coordinate that with the whole process of getting a city permit, though... ugh.

Feeder marches and breakaway marches also make a real diversity of tactics more feasible.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
Amatul, I think the feeder march sounds like a great idea, but I'm sure the logistics would be a nightmare.

I actually did feel like I was on a "march before the march" walking from Roxbury Crossing.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
Hidden with code "Empty"
Interview :: Organizing
Tony Van Der Meer Interviews Nick Giannone
by Nick Giannone
Email: nickgiannone (nospam) msn.com (unverified!) 21 Mar 2006
This was hidden, then it wasn't. Now it's hidden again.

This is not "trolling". It is a meaningful discussion about a local issue.

Tony Van Der Meer Interviews Nick Giannone
This was hidden, then it wasn't. Now it's hidden again.

This is not "trolling". It is a meaningful discussion about a local issue.

Tony Van Der Meer Interviews Nick Giannone
by Nick Giannone
Email: nickgiannone (nospam) msn.com (unverified!) 21 Mar 2006
Tony Van Der Meer Interviews Nick Giannone
While wading through the inevitable criticisms that follow every major action I noticed a comment posted by Tony Van Der Meer that attacked a critic of March 18th in an extremely unprincipled and disgusting manner. It was so bad that before repeating it I felt that I should contact Tony and verify that he actually wrote it. Below is the text of my email to Tony and his barrage of questions that was his response.


Hey Tony,
I saw the following comment on the Boston Indymedia coverage of March 18th:

"Liam,
You are either the police and a coward or a crackhead who has an altered reality. You have become an internet political character assassin. Someone who takes a victory and turns it into a defeat is an enemy of the people! The Bushwackers couldn't have done a better job themselves. Karl Rove must be your father and the best part of you must have dripped down your mothers leg. Stop hiding behind a no verified email address you Bushwacking flunky."

The person who posted it used your name and email and I sincerely hope it was an imposter because it would be really fucked up if you've already sunk to the level of accusing critics of being cops or enemies of the people.

If you didn't post this then I would suggest that you contact an Indymedia moderator and have them remove the comment.





1. Are you supporting the so called critic Liam?



Liam Wrote on Boston Indymedia:



At today’s demonstration in Boston the Workers World Party brought Democratic Party City Councilors to the microphone to address the crowd. But since this was a radical/liberal crowd….they had to leave off the fact that these men were in the Democratic Party.

Just as Workers World Party members leave out the fact that they are WWP members when they address a crowd, so do the people who they assembled the crowd for. So much deception for such a small party….

If Chuck Turner, and Tony Van Der Meer, are recognized leaders of the black community how come they can’t seem to motivate many black people to come to anti-war rallies? The rally started in Roxbury with an overwhelmingly white crowd. Does Democratic Party member Chuck Turner ask any black people to come to these rallies? Or is it just another stop for him on the speaking circuit. Workers World Party assembles the crowd and Chuck Turner arrives alone and seeks more votes for the Democratic Party.

As usual the speeches droned on and on, when the march got going it went in circles as the Workers World Party shouted inane lowest common denominator slogans. “Stop the Violence” Who claims to be violent? US Imperialism is the world’s biggest terrorist and they claim to be “peacekeepers.” “Stop the violence” as a slogan offends no one, and challenges no one.

After crawling through the city when the Workers World Party truck came upon activists sitting on the street in front of the Recruiting Station on Tremont Street they drove their truck through the protesters forcing them to break up their action. Who needs cops to clear protesters off the streets when Worker World Party will do it for them.

Then the Workers World driven trucks made their way up the hill through the Common, but some of the crowd wanted to stay in front of the Recruiting Station. Workers World people were not happy with this. They had a lot more speeches to give at the top of the hill. They urged people to get behind the truck, to get back in line, to listen to a carefully selected set of speakers who are friendly with Workers World, but the crowd kept melting away.

After waiting for ten, fifteen minutes, the Workers World drivers had to sadly drive their trucks away, some of the speakers had practiced their speeches for nothing. The demonstration was over, and it had not gone the way Workers World Party had planned it. But don’t expect to see any of these facts reported in the WWP press or web sites. Stalinists only report glowing victories.



I support anybody’s right to make what seems to be a principled criticism.



2. Why are you interested in the post - you too have been slandering the leadership of Rosa Parks because you or your coalition could control our process and that we rejected you as a speaker.



I am interested in the post because:

a. It pertains to an action that I was involved in.

b. It is common knowledge that comments on Indymedia can easily be forged and I would not want to quote a forged post.



I think it’s defamation to accuse me of slander. Please list any false statements that I have made in any of my criticisms of the Rosa Parks leadership.

Main Entry: slander
Function: noun
Etymology: Anglo-French esclandre, from Old French escandle esclandre scandal, from Late Latin scandalum moral stumbling block, disgrace, from Greek skandalon, literally, snare, trap
1 : defamation of a person by unprivileged oral communication made to a third party; also : defamatory oral statements
2 : the tort of oral defamation <sued his former employer for slander> —compare DEFAMATION, FALSE LIGHT, LIBEL
NOTE: An action for slander may be brought without alleging and proving special damages if the statements in question have a plainly harmful character, as by imputing to the plaintiff criminal guilt, serious sexual misconduct, or conduct or a characteristic affecting his or her business or profession. —slan·der·ous /'slan-d&-r&s/ adjective —slan·der·ous·ly adverb —slan·der·ous·ness noun

Main Entry: de·fa·ma·tion
Pronunciation: "de-f&-'mA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : communication to third parties of false statements about a person that injure the reputation of or deter others from associating with that person —see also LIBEL, SLANDER New York Times Company v. Sullivan in the IMPORTANT CASES section —compare DISPARAGEMENT, FALSE LIGHT, SLANDER OF TITLE
2 : a defamatory communication <every repetition of the defamation is a publication —W. L. Prosser and W. Pacific Reporter Keeton>

Yes, I’m pissed off the Rosa Parks would get to choose who gets to speak for a separate organization. That’s just totally fucked up.

As far as “controlling the process”, the process was decided in an undemocratic, top down manner before any organizing had begun. We never sought to control it, just have a voice. I raised the question of democracy early on and was assured that decisions would be voted on and that the main organizers meeting would be the highest decision making body. At that same meeting John Harris proposed creating a discussion listserve. Both of these proposals were agreed upon and immediately reneged upon.

3. Why are you trying to monitor and control my behavior, why aren't you monitoring and controlling your own character?

I do monitor and control my own behavior.

This email was not an attempt to monitor or control your behavior. Like I wrote above, I wanted to ensure that I did not quote a forged post.

4. How is it that you actually have the audacity to approach me directly on my personal email about character when you have distrupted our meeting with your outburst, insulting the Rosa Parks leadership (Dorothea and myself), attacking the Workers World Party, Steve Kirschbaum and Chuck Turner?



Again, this is not about character. Your email was on the post. That usually means that the person posting agrees to receive feedback via email.



I “disrupted” your meeting after being subjected to a tirade by U.N. Steve Kirschbaum because I suggested that you have an agenda that the meeting gets to see and approve before the meeting. I didn’t know that agendas were such a touchy subject.



I don’t remember what I said that could be construed as an insult by either you or Dorothea. I know absolutely nothing about Dorothea and what I knew about you before this meeting only concerned your arrest at UMASS. If I did actually insult either of you at that meeting please specify.



I did attack the Workers World Party and Steve Kirschbaum (actually the same thing). They are a fucked up, top-down, opportunist organization that I regrettably have defended in the past.



I don’t remember exactly what I said about Chuck Turner either but my opinion is that, politically, he is a mixed bag. He’s pretty radical and says lots of good stuff when he’s speaking to other radicals, but he still manages to find time for the so-called Progressive Democrats of America and folks like John Kerry.



5. Why did you attack us on the internet, calling us a club and undemocratic and now you are emailing me to preach character?



I called you a club and undemocratic because you act like and undemocratic club.



I emailed you to verify that the post was yours but this exchange has revealed much about your character. Without directly responding to a single criticism you immediately accused Liam of being a cop or Bush supporter. I can play that game too. You logic rival the Bush team in two ways:



Bush says that criticism of the war undermines the war effort and helps terrorists.
You say that criticizing Rosa Parks undermines the anti-war effort and helps Bush.



Bush says that you’re either with us or you’re with the terrorists.
You say that you’re either with us or you’re a cop.



6. Where is the united front in your behavior?



When I said at the Rosa Parks meeting that I would organize where I live (Quincy) you dismissed my efforts and said that Rosa Parks was trying to reach out to communities of color. Someone should probably tell my Brazilian, Chinese, Vietnamese, South Asian, Lebanese, African and African American neighbors that they don’t live in a community of color.



Where is the united front in that?



7. Why aren't you expending your energy attacking u.s. imperialism more?



Where the fuck have you been?



8. Do you mean that being democratic means that white supremacy ideology dominates?



So… democracy equals white supremacy ideology. You do know that democracy means that I could lose every vote, right?



“A racist is someone you are arguing with.”

-Gary Hicks March 27, 2005



9. If the Rosa Parks committee doesn't follow you (a white male) or the Stop the War Coalition then we are going the wrong way?



I never asked anybody to follow me, just to follow basic democratic principles. If you are against democracy in the movement just come out and say so. Then it will be clear exactly where you stand.



Way to race-bait, by the way.



“A goddamn racist is someone you are losing an argument with.”

-Gary Hicks March 27, 2005



10. And if we are not following you or your comrades, we must be follow some other white folk, right?



This is called a straw-man argument. It is done by creating a mischaracterization of your opponent’s position and then easily smashing that mischaracterization. A college professor should know that and it shouldn’t have to be pointed out by a white boy so privileged that he can’t even afford to get his ass into Quincy College.



See the answers to questions 6 and 7.



11. So you believe that an African American male and a African Latina are not capable of leading themselves and others?



Wow, I’m actually choking from all the words you just crammed into my mouth.



12. Is this why you had an outburst and distrupted our meeting?



Question 4 – Paragraph 2.



13. Because we chose to work along with workers world party forces they must be dominating the process?



I do have to admit that it’s not entirely clear who exactly dominated the process because the decisions all seemed to be made before the meeting. It’s not even a debate within the Boston Activist community that WWP knows how to dominate an event. Only a fly on the wall of the steering committee knows who dominates.



14. Why did you red bait them?



I don’t know if a red can red-bait. If I did red-bait then I am truly sorry because I do not consider WWP to be red. It would be an insult to all true reds who have been baited to red-bait opportunists.



15. Because they have a relationship with us and you and your coalition don't?



Yeah, everybody in Boston is jealous of people who get to work with WWP. I’m green with envy.



16. Are you trying to tell us who are friends should be?



You’re friends are your problem. Jesus, all this ‘cuz I asked if you made an Indymedia comment?



17. You think you can come to our meeting and throw your Mao book and other revolutionary literature on the floor and that is suppose to impress us about your wisdom?



Wow, red-baiting.



I haven’t read much Mao lately but today I did re-read his work on contradictions among the people. While I do not agree with Mao concerning the U.S.S.R. crushing the revolt in Hungary as WWP does, I do agree that unity is only possible with criticism. You should read it sometime.





18. Was Your behavior racist and politically immature?



Racist?

See Gary Hicks quotes. Questions 6 and 7.



Politically Immature?

Compared to some of the more experienced people out there it’s entirely possible that I could be politically immature. Congratulations, that’s your first somewhat valid point so far.



Stating that “the best part of you must have dripped down your mother’s leg” is definitely not a politically mature statement.



Obviously, age is no sign of political maturity. We have a saying in my union: Some people have 20 years experience. Some people have 1 years experience 20 times.



19. Why did your coalition speak to you about your behavior or is their silence consent?



I don’t think that many members the Stop the Wars Coalition were very happy about my behavior at the meeting. We talked about it and agreed that it would be best if I didn’t attend the Rosa Parks meetings. Should they have crushed me with an iron fist or something?



Consent of what? My being a racist? See questions 6 and 7.



20. Is this about your ego comrade Nick?



Yeah, leggo my ego comrade Tony.



21. Don't you agreee that what we need in this period is political unity among progressive, revolutionary and anti – imperialist forces? There will be differences in our work, but with respect and revolutionary patience there are ways to work those differences out, otherwise behavior like yours can be viewed as objectively uniting with imperialist without being on their payroll.



“Unity is bullshit when it’s under someone’s fat boot” – Jello Biafra

See question 15.



I’m a racist, a red red-baiter and now “objectively” an imperialist. Shit I’ve been in the wrong movement all along. Maybe I should hook up with those Nazis I helped to chase out of town a little while back.



22. If you want to apologize to the Rosa Parks committee and have a constructive conversation with us, let me know and we can set up something and begin a principle dialogue.



You’re kidding, right?


Comments
Re: Tony Van Der Meer Interviews Nick Giannone
by Ori
(No verified email address) 21 Mar 2006
My condolences Nick. You've done a lot of people a favor by posting this exchange. Yikes!
Re: Tony Van Der Meer Interviews Nick Giannone
by brad
(No verified email address) 21 Mar 2006
Is there anyway to get this fight between two egomaniacs off the indy media posts. Nobody wants to read how someone said something that made someone else wonder if they really said that thing to the other person and how you smell and are ugly.

Childish nonsense. IF you don't like a group or a person, don't associate with them. Don't come on here and whine about it. And please people don't start to take sides and post for or against either, they are both wrong. The problem is with US military imperialism not other groups!
Re: Tony Van Der Meer Interviews Nick Giannone
by Ori
(No verified email address) 21 Mar 2006
Well this did confirm that one of Saturday's march's main organizers responded to criticisms of the WWP with this gem:

"You are either the police and a coward or a crackhead who has an altered reality. You have become an internet political character assassin. Someone who takes a victory and turns it into a defeat is an enemy of the people! The Bushwackers couldn't have done a better job themselves. Karl Rove must be your father and the best part of you must have dripped down your mothers leg. Stop hiding behind a no verified email address you Bushwacking flunky."

I'm glad I know that, I'd assumed it was a troll.

And the problem is capitalism. You can't just get rid of imperialism.
Re: Tony Van Der Meer Interviews Nick Giannone
by Nick Giannone
(No verified email address) 21 Mar 2006
Ori:
I thought it was a troll too when i first read it. That's how this exchange started. It's disappointing.

Brad:
Sometimes the problem is with other groups. Many people had serious problems with the organizing structure of the March 18th demo. I decided to withhold critisism in the name of "unity" until after the 18th.
Apparently some people don't like post-event criticisms.

There are sides to take and we're not "both wrong." The fundamental question boils down to this: Should the anti-war movement be democratic or should decisions be made by unelected steering committees in closed meetings with obscure political agendas?
Re: Tony Van Der Meer
by lexter
(No verified email address) 21 Mar 2006
you know, i was fully supportive of Tony Van De Meer when the recruitment tabling incident happened. but seeing all this smug, holier-than-thou, accusatory crap that he sent to Nick completely alters my opinion of the man.

nick, old friend, don't waste your time on this lame autocrat, who thinks he is in the people's "vanguard." what the people need is to strip the wealth and power from the oiligarchs and the usurious kingpins of finance...i am LOL to think that any group which barricades itself against the participation of Nick in a fury of righteous indignation is going to lead us to victory!

knee-slapping hilarity!! Go get 'em Tony the Tiger!

This work is in the public domain

Please Don't Feed the Trolls
Wikipedia defines an Internet Troll as: "An Internet troll is either a person who sends messages on the Internet hoping to entice other users into angry or fruitless responses, or a message sent by such a person." Boston IMC strives to provide both a grassroots media resource as well as a forum for people to contribute to a meaningful discussion about local issues. Please, when posting comments, be respectful of others and ignore those trying to interrupt or discourage meaningful discourse. Thank you.

-- Boston Indymedia volunteers

Comments
Re: Tony Van Der Meer Interviews Nick Giannone
by fan of Nick
(No verified email address) 21 Mar 2006
I think people like Tony could give a rat's ass about anyone who doesn't line up to lick his anus, and that's the problem with "leaders". It's always about their egos and need for good anus lickings.

Then there are people like Nick who lead by example, who really do try to bring people together. Frankly, with so many people and groups like Tony around, I think he's wasting his time. But I'll never fault his intentions.

Assholes are pretty quick to out themselves when in the company of people who refuse to lick their anus on command. That's why they never get anywhere.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
Two things constructive criticism is good and acknowledging success does not mean full support.

First ANSWER and WWP are whack in so many ways it is hard to keep track.

» Defended the Chinese government's 1989 Tienanmen Sq. massacre
» Supports the North Korean dictatorship of Kim Jong Il
» views Iraq's Saddam Hussein as a beacon of anti-imperialist resistance
» Defends the genocidal Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic

Se more info here -‡ International A.O.W.C.U.T.G.D.F.P.
(Authoritarian Opportunists Who Cozy Up To Genocidal Dictators - for Peace)
http://www.authoritarianopportunistswhocozyuptogenocidaldictators-forpea/

Second to their credit they are one of the only large "peace/anti-war" groups that constantly mobilize with and reach out to and organizing with people of color in their own communities and on their own issues in those communities. This fact may be unpleasant, but it’s true. As people opposed to authoritarian top-down structures and organizations we can prolly take a page from their book in this regard. We should be doing this type of work in a non- authoritarian way and make WWP/IAC/Answer irrelevant. Until we do that many of these very valid criticizes feel a bit hollow.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
Let's see, if you want Americans to rise up against the war, I think it best to err on the side of moderation rather than sticking with very problematic groups that alienate otherwise anti-war citizens.

If you're going to only be anti-war so long as everyone agrees to include your anti-everything else platforms on flyers, etc., then you aren't really anti-war per se.

If you think anti-war HAS to be anti-imperialist/capitalist/everything else, then as John Lennon said of those who go around carrying pictures of Chairman Mao--you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow.

The victims of these wars could care less about a socialist future at the moment. They are rightly afraid for their lives while all this posturing bullshit goes on.

Make a frikkin sign and stand on a frikkin street corner--don't wait for a bunch of attention and membership seeking clowns play politics with innocent lives at stake. Take a page from your own rhetoric and rebel against all kinds of coercive bullshit, whether it comes from people who call themselves capitalists, socialists, communists, or anarchists.

Actions speak louder than words and right now holding a sign on a busy street corner for an hour will do a whole lot more good than attending a benefit concert run by a clique.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
Nick wrote "There are sides to take and we're not "both wrong." The fundamental question boils down to this: Should the anti-war movement be democratic or should decisions be made by unelected steering committees in closed meetings with obscure political agendas?"

I'm sorry but I think you are both wrong, IAC for not being more open and you for bringing this up here.

As for the democracy of anti-war movements, the problem arises in that the people that can have endless debates on the philosophical underpinnings of protest are most often white, males with social and economic privledge. Think about it, do working class single black mothers have time to sit around and redebate an issue that was decided last meeting, but you want to rediscuss. So "democracy" is often used to up hold white male power over those with less free time for activism. No don't get me wrong I think democracy is very important, but we all know it can be used for power maintenance (read US "democracy" promotion, voting as "democracy" and meeting "democracy" over minute details to derail opposition).

I am quite new to the area and its activist scene, but I am amazed by the lack of intellectual sophistication. The use of catchy phrases and faulse binaries such as; democratic v. undemocratic, anti-authoritarian v. authoritarian, communist v. anarchist etc...is used to supplant actual analysis and thinking.

And come on, the future state of society is not decided in a planning meeting for a protest. The future society will be constructed out of the meetings that emerge after the dust of this one settles.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
I am merely an observer as a photographer who was out for the first time with people taking part in a rally/march. I am not a cop as suggested by Liam, nor do I have any connections to them, or any affiliations to any organizations that has a vested interest at the event. I posted what I saw about 'Steve' (the guy with the horn) only to let the people who may not have known about the situation because the majority of the marchers marched ahead and into the Common as planned. Also for the record, I did not critized the WWP or anything about the rally/march... only the action of one person at the sit down.

From the little that I know about organized rally/marches, I just don't think his [Steve's] action was necessary. I am sure the people who decided to sit, whether spontaneous or planned were willing to play out the situation without the organizer running up to the police telling them to "do whatever you like to them" and could have just declared his position on the matter and remove himself from the situation.

PS, I will post my pics over the weekend.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
I am merely an observer as a photographer who was out for the first time with people taking part in a rally/march. I am not a cop as suggested by Liam, nor do I have any connections to them, or any affiliations to any organizations that has a vested interest at the event. I posted what I saw about 'Steve' (the guy with the horn) only to let the people who may not have known about the situation because the majority of the marchers marched ahead and into the Common as planned. Also for the record, I did not critized the WWP or anything about the rally/march... only the action of one person at the sit down.

From the little that I know about organized rally/marches, I just don't think his [Steve's] action was necessary. I am sure the people who decided to sit, whether spontaneous or planned were willing to play out the situation without the organizer running up to the police telling them to "do whatever you like to them" and could have just declared his position on the matter and remove himself from the situation.

PS, I will post my pics over the weekend.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
21 Mar 2006
Sorry for the multi posts. I was trying to upload an image, but the system went crazy. Will try again later.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
22 Mar 2006
so far, out of all these posts, i think i like amatul's blessings and me.'s constructive criticisms. thanks yall for staying on point and giving us all something good to chew over (as we dodge the flying spitballs).

prof. van der meer, your initial comment set a pretty low standard for this discussion, and while i realize you have dealt with a lot of harassment in your organizing and it's never pleasant to be the target of complaints, i really find it difficult to believe those were your thoughts on the criticisms people posted. i mean, not everyone with legitimate concerns about the politics of wwp or democractic transparency in the antiwar movement is a cop. hopefully your future commentary will reveal the insightful side i have been accustomed to in previous interactions.

nick, while i have enjoyed your contributions to the boston activist scene, i think unfortunately the tirade you have demonstrated on this public site does show a serious lack of tact, and i urge you to consider the impact all this will have on the larger movement. while you might be right to be angry (i don't know the back story, and don't particularly want to see it publicized on imc), publishing your private correspondence here is a breathtakingly arrogant low, regardless of your motivations. also, i was raised to show respect to my elders, and though prof. van der meer has been guilty of social sins before, he is not the enemy. your tactic of flaming his character are serving to undercut his significant contributions to the radical landscape in boston. in the interest of the larger movement, i'd suggest you spend more time trying to find a way out of this mess which brings us all out ahead, and doesn't give the pigs more to snicker at.

ps- many props to the 'welcome to boston' gasmask graphic used by the anti-biolab people!
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
22 Mar 2006
Mike P. I never called you or anyone else a Cop. I value your input as to what went on at the demo. Your observation of Steve K. "Bullhornman" talking to the Cops shows that WWP asks the Cops to keep their demonstrators in line. People who have no political arguments call everyone a Cop. Tony Van, a WWP hanger on, accused me of being a Cop because I criticized the WWP and the way they run things. I mearly pointed out that over a dozen peope, Mike P included, had criticized the demo and WWP. I asked rhetorically if all those people were Cops. I don't think anyone posting here is a Cop, but the Stalinist WWP runs to the Cops to help guide their march.....Then they call anyone who complains a Cop - That's Stalinist "double think." You, Mike P, are an honest observer.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
22 Mar 2006
alright - okay - i was one of the rosa parks organizers who asked the people sitting outside the recruitment center to 1. let the 2nd truck pass so it wouldn't interfere with their action, 2. consider rejoining the march so we could gather everyone else and finish on the common, and 3. consider getting off the street for their own safety because i didn't want anyone to be arrested.

i'll admit, this put me in an awkward position, especially because many of the protestors that were sitting in were activists and friends from the stop the bu biolab campaign. but believe me when i say that those are the 3 reasons i personally asked those sitting in to leave. when it became clear to me that those sitting in were willing to risk arrest, steve pointed out that there was a legal advisor present in case of any brutality. tony and i did agree that the people sitting in had the right to. there is nothing politically malignant in any of this. it was a spur of the moment action and the spur of the moment reactions were not one hundred percent perfect, my own included. i want to apologize if i came off as anything other than someone who was personally concerned for the well-being of his friends.

i applaud those on this list who have added constructive comments and are honestly expressing their feelings. this march meant a lot to me and i see it as a clear as day victory and the start of something new. if we can't all agree on our politics, we can at least agree that we are all against the war.

pepe.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
22 Mar 2006
Some people I talked to at the 18 March 06 demonstration asked what the difference between Stalin and Trotsky, and Stalinists like the Workers World Party, and other socialists and Communists who look to Lenin. These are not obscure questions that have nothing to do with stopping Imperialist War. They go to the heart of the matter.

Supporting left capitalists parties is the hallmark of Stalinism - Lenin, and then Trotsky said that workers must build there own organizations, trades unions, and working class parties. Workers must fight for their own interests, that's what capitalists always do.

One of the earliest examples of the difference between Stalin and Trotsky was in China in 1927. Stalin had ordered the Chinese Communist Party to join the capitalist controlled left nationalist party, the Guomingdang, of Chang Kie Shek. Stalin and his forces thought that Chang was a good anti-imperialist.

In 1927 the workers of Shang Hai rose up and set up a Soviet, a workers council to rule the city. The Guomingdang massacred the Communist lead workers and began a purge of all CCP workers and cadre. Over 100,000 advanced workers were killed. What was left of the CCP retreated to the country side and oriented toward farmers, not workers. This was the beginning of Maoism, a variation of Stalinism.

If the Chinese workers had won in 1927 the world would be a different, better place today. The isolation of the USSR would have been broken, the pro-world revolution ideas of Lenin and Trotsky would have been validated. But this was a historic defeat for the left.

Stalinist were elevated in the USSR in 1927 and the ouster of real Communist, lead by Trotsky, sealed the defeat of people who believed in the power of the industrial working class to organize itself and take power in the name of the working class. Stalinist are always negotiating, looking for alliances, looking to anybody but independent working class revolution.

Just look to North Korea, the Stalinist rulers actually believe that if they give up their nuclear weapons and program the US will give them a piece of paper promising not to attack them. US imperialism has troops in 120 countries around the world. They will attack or overthrow the deformed workers state of North Korea when it suits them. They have never been held back by squiggles on a piece of paper.

Trotsky predicted that if Soviet workers could not oust the Stalinists the Soviet Union would collapse and be worse than before. This did not happen in the amount of time Trotsky thought it would, but it happened. Stalinist ideas, and the Workers World Party that continues to follow his ideas, are a recipe for defeat. Lenin was right, Trotsky was right, Stalin and Mao were wrong.

With the local Worker World Party we can see Stalinism in action - with Steve K. “bullhornman” handing sit-down protestors over to the police we have the quintessence of what Stalinism delivers - defeats and surrender
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
22 Mar 2006
Anyway interested in socialism would might be ido well to also read Emma Goldman's critiques of Lenin and the Bolshevik revolution in Russia. This is not just a debate between so-called Stalinists and Trotskyites and Leninists but a lager one involving libertarian socialist and anarchist trends and critiques as well.


My Disillusionment in Russia 1922 - by Emma Goldman
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/goldman/works/1920s/disillusio
You're it. Go do it. Period.
22 Mar 2006
whether it's talking about Trotsky vs Stalin or WWP or ANSWER or whatever, seems a lot of people always have to be representing some faction of an argument that has nothing inherently to do with stopping the US government's war(s) of aggression. People who are constantly quoting dead people or citing arguments that haven't been resolved for a hundred or more years seem to do so out of a lack of original or creative thoughts of their own. Imagine how much could get done if everyone just dropped the tribal allegiances and worked as individuals without trying to gain an advantage over one another. If any of these groups really were a threat to the powers that be they would have long ago been driven underground. the fact that their existence seems to inevitably result in discord, arguing, endless planning and infrequent actions, dull repetitive speeches and programs--all of this should give us pause. Most people involved in these large groups probably have no idea what motivates the group's leadership, or who their paymasters are. If you want to effectively fight a corrupt state, you need to be able to recognize and work around persistently ineffective forces. There IS an underground network of concerned citizens and other individuals that you can tap into, that obeys no master. If you want to be effective you'll need to figure that out, no one is going to tell you exactly who or what you need to be working with or on. If it were that easy there would be no way to succeed--any empire or power bloc worth the name knows to infiltrate and subvert every and any group mentioned on these pages. that's the facts. see you in the streets.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
23 Mar 2006
i was at the rally for the whole time. i felt that it was a bit of a dissapointing turnout (i'd say just under 1,000 people).

i think there are two large quesitons brought up in the discussion which we should examine closely.

1. the starting point for the rally was not easily accessible via public transportaion.

2. to chuck turner and other councilors - WE SEE YOU NOT BUILDING THIS MOVEMENT!!!!!

3. democracy and the anti-war movement

one idea that i heard thrown around was starting a rally in the boston common and then marching to the dudley common for a second half of the rally. few people not from Roxbury know where the dudley common is, further, its at least 4 or 5 blocks from the nearest public transportation. its great that the anti-war forces are reaching out to working class communities, but we need to reach out to ALL working class communities, not just those which happen to be in the middle of Chuck Turner's district. lets make the next rally T accessible.

i agree with those who have criticized Arroyo, Yoon and Turner (i didn't even see the Foundation there, but they could've had other things planned). these politicians, if they were truly "for the people" and "part of" the anti-war movement, they SHOULD BE using their position - with all the media access they are given, not to mention all the people who voted for them and the contacts they have - to build the anti-war movement. These three councilors should have worked their ASSES OFF to publicize this demo... calling constituents, holding press conferences, reserving buses, using every occasion to publicize this movement. obviously the anti-war movement should not look to these people for representation, just lame-ass speaches.

-josh

ps. out of ALL the photos on Indymedia and the IAC site, there is 1 (one) picture of socialist alternative which had one of loudest contingents (we outshouted the second sound truck) and 40 people marching together.
www.socialistalternative.org
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
23 Mar 2006
ok, so i decided not to get into the democracy thing because i got angry remembering the frustration of siting in Rosa Parks Committee meetings. i heard "we've decided ___, now who can help out?" at every meeting. any attempt to question that was met with rebuff or redirection. (eve lyman of boston mobe had to play 20 questions in order to find out that the rally was going to be at dudley common before the march!).

we need democracy in all our actions. united fronts (build the same event, march under seperate banners) cannot exist unless there is cooperation and democracy in decision making.

i'd like to thank everyone who has brought up their observations about this demo and point out that name calling and profanity aimed at others' families is something best left to the middle school playground not the anti-war movement.

-josh
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
23 Mar 2006
Yo Josh! you need to step off!

1 - Easily accessible for who? For white, middle class and or college anti-war activists? That Is what you mean isn’t it? The starting point was easily accessible by bus, if you don’t think that a bus is “Easily accessible” than it demonstrates your privileged point of view of life in Boston. Notice that there is a serious lack of T stations in many of the non-white parts of town? T access in a privilege. You want the anti-war movement to be “more diverse” than you better take it to the people, not accept the people to come to you in your parts of town. If it was hard for you to find the starting point that also shows that you are out of touch with real life in Boston’ “new majority” communities. Try actually spending some time outside of your comfort zone on the “right side of the tracks”. I think one of the things this event did right was to start in Roxbury. If you are bothered by the event being in a largely non-white area I would suggest taking a deep look inside and rooting out the racism and privilege that leads you that feeling.

2 - Than you are not looking! Most likely because you are blinded by your privileges. I’m sorry to be so harsh here but for YOU the top issue might be the war, for others (especially those living in Roxbury/Dorchester) the issues given priority are unemployment, CORI discrimination, racism etc. These are issues the directly effect many peoples lives in a way that others (from the more affluent parts of Boston) have a hard time understanding. Do you know you even know what the unemployment rate in those areas is compared to the rest of Boston? Do you care? I’m going to check you right here and tell that you have zero idea of what Chuck Turner does in his community and how vocal he has always been about his strong anti-war stance. Read the Boston Globe sometime. Your ignorance of this issue is unbelievable. Chuck was arrested for protesting this war when it began for crying out loud, were you? Chuck has been a radical activist since the 60's, he has done more to build the movement over that time than almost anyone in Boston I can think of. So Step off!

3 - I agree that the IAC, WWP and ANSWER are very undemocratic, hence the frustration you may feel. This is a very real issue. However having a bunch of white and or middle class activist march into Dudely is a horrible, paternal and racist idea. It should be obvious the reasons why. Look up the word "solidarity', and white you are at it the words "white privilege."

PS. Maybe if you would put down your cult newspaper and act like a real human being acting in solidarity with those around you that are actually directly effected by poverty racism and war – than you might get your picture in Indymedia.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
24 Mar 2006
jonathan, what you said about the t access is on point- while wealthy parts of the city have nice shiny subway cars, roxbury has a bus called the silver line, and mattapan has trolleys from the 60's. now i'm not complaining about buses- they are much preferable to nothing, like in many other cities without any public transit, and without a decent transit union. but there is an obvious discrepancy here with the "silver line." sounds like maybe people didn't know about the buses from ruggles, roxbury crossing, and dudley station to the march meeting point. it's a pain but that doesn't seem reason enough for all the frothing.
josh, i don't know too much about socialist alternative, and i'm generally suspicious about the sectarian left groups, but you're right about your sizable contingent being rowdy and tightly organized. good for you and thanks for making the effort to get people out. the points you made about democracy being necessary for a united front are right on- despite people's token recognition of this reality, there still seems to be not much practice of democratic principles. nothing wrong with people initiating an effort, but it must be open for equal participation from other sincere organizers from other groups. our political differences are less important than building our strength against this rapidly worsening government.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
24 Mar 2006
The T discrimination thing is a fact. The orange line was stolen from Dudley.

But there are some of T stops that are in non-white neighborhoods. Even using the shitty Mattapan Trolley would have been a better choice.

By the way, the big signs that point people to the Silver "Line" were mysteriously missing from Downtown Crossing on March 18.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
24 Mar 2006
Ok, first of all, I'm sick and tired of after every demonstration IndyMedia being used as a forum for everyone to talk shit in a completely unconstructive way. Has anyone ever heard of positive, constructive criticism? This is why I think the idea of organizing a meeting to assess the demonstration is good, because the Internet lends itself to shit-talking rather than acting like human beings. (And on a side note, I think IndyMedia should be moderated - or at least important discussions should be or something! I know this is not a popular opinion ...)

I thought this was a good demonstration and I'm glad that it started at Dudley Common. That said, I don't think there's something inherently wrong with saying, "Hey, Dudley Common is somewhat difficult to get to - did this lower the overall turnout? Is there a way around this? Could there have been or can there in the future be a feeder march organized from Dudley Common (and good locations in other communities) to some more central location? Or is it best to have the main demonstration start there, and should people try to focus on organizing demonstrations in their own communities in the Boston area?" These are serious questions.

Finally, I take issue with the description of Justice, the newspaper of Socialist Alternative, which I write for, as a cult newspaper. People should check it out themselves and draw their own conclusions and not take Jonathan's holier-than-thou preachings at face value (thanks for not including an e-mail address by the way). You can find it online at www.socialistalternative.org.

Jonathan, seriously, what the hell is the matter with you, calling genuine activists, who put up literally thousands of posters all over the city to build for this demonstration - from Roxbury to Quincy to Somerville - and passed out thousands of leaflets - a cult?

I hope we can move forward in Boston and continue to build the anti-war movement and overcome all the stupid sectarianism that I really think is holding us back and is one reason why the demonstration here was smaller than in other cities.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
24 Mar 2006
Ok, first of all, I'm sick and tired of after every demonstration IndyMedia being used as a forum for everyone to talk shit in a completely unconstructive way. Has anyone ever heard of positive, constructive criticism? This is why I think the idea of organizing a meeting to assess the demonstration is good, because the Internet lends itself to shit-talking rather than acting like human beings. (And on a side note, I think IndyMedia should be moderated - or at least important discussions should be or something! I know this is not a popular opinion ...)

I thought this was a good demonstration and I'm glad that it started at Dudley Common. That said, I don't think there's something inherently wrong with saying, "Hey, Dudley Common is somewhat difficult to get to - did this lower the overall turnout? Is there a way around this? Could there have been or can there in the future be a feeder march organized from Dudley Common (and good locations in other communities) to some more central location? Or is it best to have the main demonstration start there, and should people try to focus on organizing demonstrations in their own communities in the Boston area?" These are serious questions.

Finally, I take issue with the description of Justice, the newspaper of Socialist Alternative, which I write for, as a cult newspaper. People should check it out themselves and draw their own conclusions and not take Jonathan's holier-than-thou preachings at face value (thanks for not including an e-mail address by the way). You can find it online at www.socialistalternative.org.

Jonathan, seriously, what the hell is the matter with you, calling genuine activists, who put up literally thousands of posters all over the city to build for this demonstration - from Roxbury to Quincy to Somerville - and passed out thousands of leaflets - a cult?

I hope we can move forward in Boston and continue to build the anti-war movement and overcome all the stupid sectarianism that I really think is holding us back and is one reason why the demonstration here was smaller than in other cities.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
24 Mar 2006
It is ok to protest against a war .
But until all people of the world including government workers do not go on strike no one But people can bring a Government of wrong doer down People have power .and until they use it we will have dictators and war mongers ruling the world.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
24 Mar 2006
Jonathan,

I'd like to point out that there are underpriveleged people who don't happen to live in Roxbury. I live in East Boston - *not* a white neighborhood, certainly not a priveleged neighborhood. So, because I don't live in Roxbury, I was not aware of the bus(buses?) from Roxbury Crossing to Dudley Square. The directions I was given was to take the T to Roxbury Crossing and walk to the intersection of Blue Hill & Dudley.

I like the idea of starting in Boston Common and marching to Roxbury; or Dorchester or East Boston or whathaveyou.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
24 Mar 2006
You like the idea of a mostly white middle class crowd marching into a non-white community in Boston? I seriously hope you are joking...

Just so everyone knows, Socialist Alternative is an arm of CWI (Committee for a Workers' International). They are the largest Trotskyist organization…basically they are coordinators and central planners. They do have the best graphic design of all the sectarian leftist newspapers though…I will give them that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_a_Workers_International

Putting up flyers and attending a march is not community activism or solidarity. Besides I was not saying CWI is not doing anything positive, I am saying that I am skeptical of hierarchical sectarian leftist organizations with newspapers that push their party line…
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
25 Mar 2006
I've said this before, and I know I'll say it again.

There is not going to be a revolution tomorrow. Until then, organize with a healthy discourse together and among eachother.

"To each their own- but all together."
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
25 Mar 2006
One last thing, with my appologies...

We don't experience real suffering in the United States. We might experience intellecutal suffering by bearing the weight of responsibility for this country... But we hardly experience physical suffering. My heat has been turned off. I have not had healthcare. I have been homeless. But still, here, this is not REAL physical suffering. This is not war far. This is not internal gonocide to the extent that our government carries out economicly and militarily overseas.

What I'm saying is that there are people dying every moment. There are people being murdered and killed by this country- Every moment the capitalistic hegenomy is further spreading the dire epidemic of greed and lust- leaving a wake of death and exploitation...

All you can do is sit here in your "revolutionary" arm chairs and bicker about ideology. Fuck this.

This is what makes me lose hope in a real movement in within this country.
Don't waste your time with them
25 Mar 2006
As more and more people come to accept the truth about 9-11 (as evidenced by the CNN poll about Charlie Sheen, where 83% of over 30,000 respondents agree with him that the government is hiding the truth, it behooves everyone who associates with any of these sectarian groups to ask those folks if and when they're going to get on board the truth train. While your average bourgeois American is in fact extremely skeptical of the Al Qaeda did it theory, these leftist groups are discouraging their membership from taking the same tonic. Oddly, and I have seen this in Larouchies, SA, the Spartacists, and RCP definitively, they just don't believe or care that Bush is lying about murdering his own people. I attribute this to their internationalist agenda, where anything that destroys "capitalist America", including Bush and the ex(?)Trotskyist neo-cons, is a good thing. And they do it with smiles on their faces as they encourage you to "Beat Back Bush" or demand Money (what money? we're broke!) for Jobs and Education. With 9-11 as the only reason AMericans ever went along with the doctrine of preemptive war, any anti-warrior who does not exploit the Bushco's Achilles heel is to be trusted no farther than you can throw a stack of their newspapers. Just goes to show what top-down organizing is all about--preventing people from thinking for themselves and realizing what they REALLY have to do to save the working class from its so-called leaders. Pah on them all. Use the 9-11 litmus test and watch these people squirm as they are penned in with the most rabid Muslim bashing racists as the rest of us wake up. Try it next time you are offered a paper--ask the nice youngster how THEY think WTC 7 collapsed, if not with explosives. If they even know what you're talking about, they'll be changing the subject faster than you can say "completely infiltrated and subverted pseudo-populist mass indoctrination cult." The fastest way to economic and social justice is always to go after the biggest criminals first, with everything you can muster against them. These groups DO NOT operate in good faith, period.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
25 Mar 2006
I understand where your coming from- but honestly if your that tied to your ideology to see someone who has honestly good intentions then you are just as guilty as they. I've talked to the RCP and all their fronts as well, and most of them do have good intentions, they are just misled about how to deal with the problems they see in society.(With all do respect my friends) Just like you are misled to think that they don't have good intentions.

Humans are completely social creatures and most evil is learned from social institutions- if they can learn then they can unlearn... And it starts by giving people a chance.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
25 Mar 2006
Yo Jonathon,
Socialist Alternative actually organizes an outreach activity in Roxbury every Thursday afternoon at Dudley station. We talk to folks and, more importantly, we listen to them -- want to join us some time?

Also, thanks for the shout out to the Committee for a Workers International (which Socialist Alternative is the U.S. arm and leg to). Yo, peeps, check us out.

The CWI has a proud record of leading mass movements that have changed the lives of millions of working people for the better (mostly in Britain, but we share our experiences through out international organization).

You might say, "That's impossible. Socialist groups with newspapers are 'sectarian' by definatition - I looked it up. And by sectarian, I mean these groups shout from the sidelines (maybe on indymedia) and don't actually accomplish anything"

Well, check out these CWI websites: http://www.militant.org.uk/PollTax.html
and
http://www.militant.org.uk/Liverpool.html

sorry for the arrogance... I'm not really a arrogant sectarian, i just play one on Indymedia -- i'm sure the same applies to Jonathan.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
26 Mar 2006
Admittedly indymedia is not the best place for this discussion, I'm sure many of the SA people posting here are decent folks outside of their party line when they are not hawking their paper.

That said…I’m Sorry but "outreach activity in Roxbury" sound like a dogmatic missionary style event you got going. Which is not organizing or solidarity...sounds to me like its just pushing the old Trot party line.

Also you seem to be confused about what sectarian actually means...I have not party line to push.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
26 Mar 2006
"I’m Sorry but "outreach activity in Roxbury" sound like a dogmatic missionary style event you got going. Which is not organizing or solidarity...sounds to me like its just pushing the old Trot party line."

You got mad spin skills. Props.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
26 Mar 2006
Anyone who spends more time labeling others as authoritarians, coordinators etc, than talking about solidarity is being sectarian.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
26 Mar 2006
OMG people who don't support coordinatorism are sectarian!
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
27 Mar 2006
Sectarian noun: sek'tehreeum
1. A member of a sect
"most sectarians are intolerant of the views of any other sect"

No, people who throw around terms like "coordinatorists" in order to claim a higher moral position are sectarian.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
27 Mar 2006
Or maybe we're just not in this fight to install a coordinator class?
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
27 Mar 2006
Or maybe you created a meaningless term to divide a movement and claim a "new" form of ideology. Either way dealing in ideological differences makes one a sectarian, and holding up the created difference as the reason for the new movement is just pathetic. There are plenty of good fights, war, capitalism, environmental distruction etc.. There is no need to create artificial epistemic fissures based on particular interpretations of historically specific movements/events of the past. Unity is key.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
27 Mar 2006
Sect - The word sect (n) comes from the Latin secta (from sequi), meaning (1) a course of action or way of life, (2) a behavioral code or founding principles, (3) a specific philosophical school or doctrine (Such as in this case, Trotskyism as interpreted by the CWIs party line).

Sectarianism - refers (usually pejoratively) to a rigid adherence to a particular sect or party or denomination. (In this case Trotskyism and the CWIs party line which is a sect of the larger Marxism framework, which is in itself a sect of the larger social and economic justice movement).

Coordinatorism - is an organizational and economic system in which control is held neither by people who own capital, nor by the workers, but instead is held by an intervening class of coordinators. Typically in the roles of managers, administrators, intellectuals, etc. The coordinators carry out conceptual and administrative tasks, and they also decide what tasks the ordinary workers should carry out. Coordinatorism is commonly associated with the economic practices of communist states during the twentieth century, where the allocation of production and consumption was highly centralised. The use of the term coordinatorism helps clarify the difference between several distinct economic systems that are sometimes described using the term "socialism". The name "socialism" can be set aside for systems which give control over the means of production to the workers themselves, while "coordinatorism" can be used for systems which give control over the means of production to managers and administrators, despite the fact that the workers (or someone else) nominally "own" those means of production. Thus, the issue of real control is separated from that of nominal ownership. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinatorism
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
27 Mar 2006
So would anti-coordinatorism be a sect Jonathan? It has its own strict ideology. It uses this ideology to discredit other ideologies in its sectarian games of distraction. I don't think anyone is asking you to join the CWI, I am not (I am not even a member). Just wondering why you think they should not be allowed to post without being called names?
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
27 Mar 2006
Again Brad I think you don't really understand what sectarian is...Being against coordinatorism is a principle, like being against private ownership of the means of production or being against capitalist ownership for that matter...it has nothing to do with sectarianism. We could ogo back an forth all day, but I think this conversation is going nowhere. So this will be my last comment.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
27 Mar 2006
Yeah we all know that the only people who use the term "coordinatorist" are pareconites, which definitely has an ideology. Even if one does rely on your example that it is the same as ownership of MOP, it is alittle different as everyone will agree on the meanings of the phrase "means of production". Conversly, the term coordinatorist is a highly contested term and theory. It is just a rip off of tony cliffs state capitalism, with the added twist that it somehow also applies to managers in the capitalist societies. Why not just use the common term state capitalism.

I figured you would say that we were getting no where and stop posting once we actually started getting somewhere, you have done that before. Yet you claim you are not ideologically motivated, but once your ideological views become unmasked you shrill from the debate. Seems like you are motivated by sectarian righteousness to me.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
28 Mar 2006
This is ridiculous but I'll bite.

Brad, I'm not a huge parecon fan, but I'm not going to fight if the fight is to install a coordinator (capitalist) class.

Tony Cliff didn't invent the "state capitalism" analysis, here read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
28 Mar 2006
Is Tony Van De Meer really a professor? I hope their is a troll who is pretending to be Prof. Van De Meer,because his spelling is very bad and some of the sick remarks he made about Liam are disgusting and totally uncalled for in what should be a civil debate.If he lectured like that in a class room he would be fired.Also why would a college professor have to stoop that low? He couldn't possibly be that easily upset by someones comments in this forum.Let's hope it was a troll! Never the less, a good dicussion for the most part.Thank you all for some important insights into the problems of the anti-war movement in Boston.It is very sad to see our numbers fall so dramatically over the past 3 years.We must unite and stop all this childish behaviour.I really think Americans are cracking up.Why can't we get along?
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
28 Mar 2006
Tony Van and the people he associates with politically (for example the Workers World Party) have no tradition of debate. Ideology, strategy, tactics are all decided behind closed doors (or in some ‘leader’s’ head) never in open debate with all concerned parties allowed to freely state what they believe.

I don’t like a lot of what British Parliamentarian and anti-Iraq War activist George Galloway supports, but I couldn’t help cheering when he testified in front of the US Congressional Committee last year. Coming from the British political system that seems to allow debate, he was able to stand up to the Pro-Imperialist Republican right wingers. He turned the tables on them and scored points. They accused him of supporting Saddam Hussein. He pointed out that he had met Hussein exactly two times, just like Donald Rumsfeld, but he wasn’t giving him military arms to fight Iran, as Donald Rumsfeld was.

The Workers World Party Stalinists (aka R.Parks Cmte, ANSWER, etc.) have no tradition of open debate. The only way they can respond to criticism is through verbal tirades (read some of the above posts for reports on Steve K “bullhorn man”’s verbal outbursts when challenge by someone on any point) or on a web posting board where a loud voice doesn’t carry - they call an opponent a COINTELPRO Cop. Tony Van seemed unaware that his childish taunts scored debating points for his opponent - that’s how detached from normal political discussion these Stalinists are.

Before the Stalinists seized control of the Soviet Union, and the Soviet Communist Party there was a tradition in leftist circles of open HEATED debate. We are talking and writing about serious issues. What we think and say matters. The only way people can come to the best decisions about what to do is through open democratic debate. Democracy on the left, and in the Union movement, is not a luxury or a far off goal to dream about. It is absolutely necessary….here and now. We need democratic feed back to understand what we are doing, and what we should plan for.

This is not how WWP operates. Tony Van hangs around them politically, and he operates the way they do. People ask why the anti- War demonstrations are getting smaller every year. What does WWP organize? Speeches in the park from every “poverty pimp” social welfare leader they can find. These people get their paychecks from the government to keep black and poor people busy and docile. But they have to talk tough on occasion.

WWP builds platforms and assembles audiences with radical sounding slogans and then hands the audience over to DEMOCRATIC PARTY members and peripherals. The audience is fairly intelligent - some of them get the message and understand that they should just show up on election day and VOTE DEMOCRAT. Why march all over town when you are just giving back door support to Democrats.

So the demonstrations get smaller, and Tony Van is very sensitive if anyone tries to confuse him with reality. But for all his bluster about the “black community” as if he were an elected spokesman, he is a general without an army - he seems to show up at these demonstrations basically by himself. I look forward to the day when the Workers World Party is marginalized and Steve K has only his bullhorn to hand over to the Democrats.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
28 Mar 2006
You can not just call someone a sectarian because they put out a newspaper or belong to a socialist or Trotskyist or anarchist or Stalinist organization. Groups (or individuals) are sectarian in my opinion if they put the interests of building their group ahead of building the mass movement. For instance, if an organization tries to control a movement and impose its party line on a movement in an undemocratic and exclusionary way. A group (or individual) is sectarian if it refuses to work with other groups or people with other ideologies. All this has to be judged in the course of action, not from some abstract formulas or dictionary definitions. "The truth is always concrete."

So, I don't see how Socialist Alternative is sectarian, given that we made the utmost effort to build for this demonstration and involve as many people as possible, as we have done in the past, for instance, when we set up a democratic coalition of college students from a number of Boston campuses to organize an anti-war demonstration in December 2004. We argue for our ideas, yes, but democratically. I don't see how we're sectarian when we went out and produced hundreds of flyers in Spanish and Portugese for the March 18th demonstration (even though we had criticisms of the organizers). We're interested in building the mass movement at the same time as we build our organiztion - just like the best socialists have always been.

We need to bring more people into activity against the war - and sectarianism is a cancer that will prevent that from happening. As is undemocratic behavior.

That said, Jonathan, you can go to freaking hell.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
29 Mar 2006
Sect:
1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.

It is no more sectarian to call Nazis on their authoritarian shit than to call Trotskyists on their authoritarian shit.

Trotskyists are not part of a movement for a free society. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
30 Mar 2006
Speaking of Authoritarians…..

One of the more curious local happenings during the Democratic Nat’l Convention in ‘04 was the Boston Police Patrolman Assoc. picket line at the North Station Convention Center. The Cops had some dispute with Mayor Menino, so they thought they’d get some publicity, and make Democrats kiss their ring by refusing to cross their “picket” line.

Cops are not workers, and their association is not a Labor Union. They are the hired thugs of the ruling class.

For some convoluted reason a group of Anarchists showed up to JOIN THE POLICE PICKET LINE!

What their rational was I can not fathom. Did they think the cops were workers?

Within a few minutes the off duty picketing cops realized who they were they told the Anarchists to leave. The Anarchist politely left. These were not uniformed cops on duty who they could play cat and mouse with, these were off duty cops on their own time. A handful of them could disperse the ‘street fighting’ Anarchist IMMEDIATELY. They could see the balance of power, and they had none. Not even newspapers to sell

But why don’t the Anarchists see the cops as authoritarians? Or do they only call Leninists, Trotskyists, and other organized leftist authoritarian.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
30 Mar 2006
"Trotskyists are not part of a movement for a free society."

This is an oppinion. Do you know any or have you ever talked to any trotskites? Did they say they were opposed to a free society? First you should probably define "free society", next you might want to leave the ideology at the door and treat people as individuals and not as a rigid group. If everyone just left their ideological flag behind and sought to build a movement together based on mutually agreed upon goals we could actually accomplish some shit. Or we could continue to call each other names and define ourselves by what we are not.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
31 Mar 2006
trust me Liam -- 95% of the anarchists in this town were baffled as to why anyone went to a cop picket, although I did hear an explanation from someone who went who said they were trying to intensify the antagonism between the cops and the dem machine going into the DNC protests.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
31 Mar 2006
Iron Council,

That's good to hear. We all make mistakes. It's how we handle them, and how we learn from them, that is important Reality is a moving target.

But everyone should learn a basic leftist princilple - Cops are the hired guns of the Ruling Capitalist Class. They are not neutral. They can not be persuaded to switch to the workers and progressives side. (Yes, there will always be one or to exceptions.) They are NOT a part of the Labor movement, even if they come from a working class background. The Army can be appealed to, a revolution, in the end, is not a fight against the Army, it is a fight for it.

That is why people at Harvard who are helping and joining with workers who are trying to Unionize and get better wages should not allow Security Guards or any other Police group speak from their stage. Cops are paid thugs who do not even fight in their own interest, they fight to maintain the Capitalist Class rule.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
31 Mar 2006
No argument here.

What was even weirder, during that same contract dispute, the cop union did an action where they dressed all in black, put masks over their faces, and dropped a banner from the top of a parking garage.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
01 Apr 2006
Right on Brad!

Anyway, I'm not here to speak for the anarchists by anymeans...But, I think it is a personal choice of some to go march with the cops if they wanna. I don't think that directly reflects on ALL the anarchists.

Where I personally stand is, I agree that most 5.0 are there to protect the interests of the capitalist class- but, most don't even understand the complexity of the issue at hand. Do you even think most cops know what a capitalist class is? Do you think they know what they are doing? No, they don't. Naturally, I don't think this excuses them pepper spraying me or brutalizing people at marches... But I do think there is a good amount of them who have no fucking idea what is going on and why these black clad cats wearing bandannas are doing direct action.... They think we're just a bunch of kids trying to create chaos and they don't understand the issues at hand. If thats the case, which I assure you it is, then they are mostly undeserving of hate and deserving of some explanation to what the hell is going on. Perhaps thats what those anarchists were trying to do at the DNC?

They are not enemies they just arent' that intelligent.
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
01 Apr 2006
Right on Brad!

Anyway, I'm not here to speak for the anarchists by anymeans...But, I think it is a personal choice of some to go march with the cops if they wanna. I don't think that directly reflects on ALL the anarchists.

Where I personally stand is, I agree that most 5.0 are there to protect the interests of the capitalist class- but, most don't even understand the complexity of the issue at hand. Do you even think most cops know what a capitalist class is? Do you think they know what they are doing? No, they don't. Naturally, I don't think this excuses them pepper spraying me or brutalizing people at marches... But I do think there is a good amount of them who have no fucking idea what is going on and why these black clad cats wearing bandannas are doing direct action.... They think we're just a bunch of kids trying to create chaos and they don't understand the issues at hand. If thats the case, which I assure you it is, then they are mostly undeserving of hate and deserving of some explanation to what the hell is going on. Perhaps thats what those anarchists were trying to do at the DNC?

They are not enemies they just arent' that intelligent.
Erectile Disfunction
07 Apr 2006
Does anyone have a good solution to a limp weener?
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
08 Apr 2006
"weener?"
Re: Boston March 18 anti-war protest-photos
10 Apr 2006
You are really insane!! what a bunch of psycho babble.No wonder the left is so small and pathetic.Grow up!!America is cracking up and the left is falling apart.Just stop the insults and stupid remarks and try to get along.The rich and powerful have nothing to fear.They must be laughing all the way to the bank.I think this should be the last comment.
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