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News :: Globalization : Human Rights : International : Labor : Organizing
Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
28 Mar 2006
Boston, MA--Although march organizers expected numbers only in the hundreds, an estimated four to six thousand people came to the Boston Commons to rally in favor of immigrant rights. Inspired by huge crowds of people that rallied this past weekend in Los Angeles (estimated at 500 thousand to 1 million people) Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, Milwaukee, and other cities across the United States, Bostonian immigrants came out in mass to take a stand against legislation like Rep. James Sensenbrenner’s (R-WI) bill HR 4437.
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“Our ‘pueblo’, our ‘raza’, our people has finally said enough! We will not be afraid anymore; we will rally against anti-immigrant, harmful legislation in Congress,” said Maria Elena Letona, executive director for Centro Presente, an immigrant rights organization in Cambridge. “All we want is to be able to build and work for a better future. We are good people and will demand what we deserve.”

Sensenbrenner’s bill would have made undocumented immigrants “aggravated criminal felons” and anyone who aids them (including church administrators and social workers) into criminals for “aiding and abetting” the undocumented. Additionally, it recommended erecting a 698-mile across the U.S.-Mexico border at a cost of $1 million per mile.

Jose Mendoza from El Salvador couldn’t contain his emotion as he shouted, “¡Si se puede!” and “We are not criminals!” He explained that as the oldest son of four children, he came to the United States when he was 17 years old to find some means of support for his family. That was eleven years ago, and since then he hasn’t seen them again. “The hardest thing is not been able to visit my family,” he said. “Most of us do the hard work that Americans don’t want to do and instead are being treated like terrorists.”

“We cannot create legislature based on hate instead of facilitating a process towards citizenship,” said City Councilor Felix Arroyo, “I’m more interested in McCain/Kennedy’s bill which will integrate family members in that process.”

Yesterday, the Senate Judiciary Committee implemented most of McCain and Kennedy’s proposals by making it possible for undocumented immigrants who have lived in the US for more than six years, to apply for citizenship. Senators agreed that the massive rallies this past weekend influenced their decision.

The Boston crowd was riddled with flags representing multiple countries from the American continent, including Brazil, Colombia, Haiti, El Salvador, Mexico, Argentina, Costa Rica, and the United States. People from all ages, many with kids and infants, were there to demand their rights.

Plans for the rally included a quick march from the Commons to Tremont Temple, where mass was to be held for all participants, but soon the march organizers were overwhelmed by the large crowd. “We want people to see our numbers and strength. We can’t stay inside,” said one of the demonstrators. Impromptu plans were soon made to continue the march, and a police escort was arranged all the way to Government Center where the department of Citizenship and Immigration Services resides.

“It’s not fair that in a nation that considers itself to be the most democratic, developed in the world, laws are being considered to repress a community that has contributed so much to this economy,” said Carlos Chacon, one of the rally organizers.

According to the Massachusetts Institute for a New Commonwealth (MassINC), as of 2004, one in seven Mass. Residents was born in another country. The impact of immigrants on the economy is significant. Over the last 25 years, the share of immigrants in the Massachusetts workforce has nearly doubled. Today, 17 percent of our workforce are immigrants.

Rally demonstrators came from many different social and economic backgrounds. Carmelle Bonhomecer, a citizen from Haiti, received her college degree in Canada in business administration and then moved to Boston with her husband. She compared Bush’s workers permit program to “modern-day slavery.” The temporary worker program would allow immigrants to work in the US with no work benefits nor a chance to move towards citizenship.

Ali Noorani, executive director of the Massachusetts Immigrant and Refugee Advocacy Coalition (MIRA), agrees. “I think President’s Bush proposal is indenture servitude. It creates a permanent second class and does nothing to create a solution for immigrants in the country.”

The bill approved by the Senate Judiciary Committee includes plans to toughen border patrol presence and create a guest-worker program similar to Bush's proposal, for low-wage jobs in agriculture, construction, and meat packing. The bill is scheduled for debate in the Senate’s floor today.
Related stories on this site:
BOSTON IMMIGRANTS RIGHTS MARCH--photos
Boston: 10,000 protest anti-immigrant legislation

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Immigrants Rights March & Rally - PHOTOS
27 Mar 2006
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Immigrants Rights March & Rally - PHOTOS
See also:
http://www.capedmaskedandarmed.com
Re: Immigrants Rights March & Rally - PHOTOS
27 Mar 2006
Great pictures! The crowd continued to grow as it got darker, people were calling and texting their friends to come downtown.
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27 Mar 2006
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The march continues...
Re: Immigrants Rights March & Rally - PHOTOS
27 Mar 2006
great picture of felix arroyo. there should be a follow up march
additional photos
28 Mar 2006
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additional photos
See also:
http://jeffreymcintosh.blogspot.com/
Re: Immigrants Rights March & Rally - PHOTOS
28 Mar 2006
Where were these people when we had the anti-war march on 3/18? How come the anti-war protests can only get less than a thousand people to show up?Maybe most of these people support the evil war or just don't care how many Iraqis are killed?I didn't see any signs against the war.Silence = support for the war!!We all live in the Belly of the Beast.The war machine=death to the world.
Re: Immigrants Rights March & Rally - PHOTOS
28 Mar 2006
are a moron.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
28 Mar 2006
do you realize that these people are the most exploited layer of society? My guess is they didnt come to the anti-war protest because they didnt know about it or becasue there were no flyers in their languages Plus, anti-war demonstrations get no publicity. The spanish radios advertised the protest all day long.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
28 Mar 2006
this march was incredible, gre are comunity we support to this country, and we pay taxes,
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
28 Mar 2006
Taxes. thats all I have to say. Some of these people are the most active people against the war- because they aren't paying for it.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
28 Mar 2006
Undocumented immigrants pay taxes. Many of them pay into social security in every paycheck. They pay sales taxes on every purchase. They pay rent, part of which ends up as tax revenue.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
28 Mar 2006
Wow, I really wish I'd been able to be there. This is fabulous. It's really crucial that we keep the pressure on and build on this march. The Senate Judiciary Committee didn't go forward with the police-state legislation that the House had passed, but there are still chances for reactionaries to get it back in there.

To the person asking why these folks weren't at anti-war marches, I'd first point out that there were many immigrants at most anti-war marches I've attended. But I'd turn the question around and ask why many anti-war groups haven't been at immigrant rights protests (of which there have been many before this, and I know that it's been frustrating trying to get anti-war groups to turn out more than a few people). Undocumented immigrants face major legal risks coming to rallies, while the middle-class white citizens who largely populate anti-war demos don't have the same risks if they come to immigrant rights demos.

And then, what has the anti-war movement done to get immigrants out? Have they publicized in immigrant neighborhoods? In non-English media? At anti-war marches, have there been speeches in languages other than English?

I agree with you if you're saying that we need broader coalitions and more work both to end the war and to promote immigrant rights. But it goes both ways. For you to simply say "silence=support for the war" doesn't build much. Moreover, you need to recognize how relative privilege impacts who needs to reach out to whom. Silence can also be taken to equal support for the state of fear under which undocumented immigrants are forced to live. If you're a citizen, you need to use your privilege to make it safer for your immigrant neighbors to come to anti-war demos.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
28 Mar 2006
Has America gone mad? No law is going in place to make immigration illegal...the law is to stiffen the penalty against the hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants per year.
People are trying to make this into a race issue, which it's not. This law isn't Anti-Mexican or Anti-immigration of any kind. It's saying, we have an immigration law that many are breaking, let's toughen the penalty to see if that lowers the amount of law breakers.
How is this getting spun into hate or fairness...all immigrants have the same route to becoming an American, the illegal immigrants bypass all the lawful people who wish to enter our country.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
28 Mar 2006
Well, Jones, I don't see that anyone has mentioned hate. But fairness? I'd argue that this is all about fairness. We have unfair, dysfunctional,l and unenforceable laws which have created a horrible situation.

Humans simply WILLL migrate where they need to in order to get by. No one leaves their community and comes to live in the shadows of the US working dangerous jobs for fun. As long as we have a global economy in which people can't support themselves in their home countries (thanks in large part to the economic policies promoted by the US and US-based institutions like the IMF and World Bank), they're likely to come here. Ditto for wars in places like Colombia that make people refugees, but whose refugee status isn't recognized by the US because Colombia is our "ally" in the war on drugs.

Jones, when did your family come to the US? Unless you're Native American or your family was brought over as slaves, they had reasons to immigrate. And if they're like many families in the US, they came in situations that would be called "illegal" today. You ask if the US has gone mad; these rallies give me some hope that we remember our past and have not gone mad.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
28 Mar 2006
I understand that people will migrate to America because of the vast economic opportunities that we have. What I do not like about these rallies is that it is promoting breaking of a law because of perceived problem with the law.

If there is a problem with current law, write your congressman or rally in support of changing the immigration law. These protests don't seem to be against our current law, but in opposition to toughening the penalties for breaking the law.

My main point is there is a legal route to come to America and that this bill is trying to ensure that people legally immigrate to the US, not illegally.

My grandmother is from Germany, I honestly have no idea how she immigrated, she died when my father was 9. Prior to that, I can trace my family line back to Benjamin Franklin (supposedly).

I don't think it's logical to compare those who immigrated under different immigration laws to those immigrating under todays laws. It's simply comparing apples and oranges...almost like saying drug offenders shouldn't be persecuted becasue they wouldn't have been breaking any law in 1890. That doesn't quite make any sense...hence the refernce to "America going mad".
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
28 Mar 2006
Jones, if you have family that you can trace back to Benjamn Franklin, do you think that your ancestors respected the laws of the Native American nations that lived here? And to be clear, I'm not arguing that the laws were different when many citizens' ancestors came here. I'm arguing that many European ancestors of those who are citizens today BROKE the laws 50 or 100 or 200 years ago. That may well include my ancestors, based on my family history research. So for me or others in similar cases to argue that iimmigrants shouldn't break the law seems hypcritical.

It sounds like your focus is on laws, and the need to respect them. But looking at history, unjust laws don't just change because people say that they should change. There was no legal protection for forming unions for a long time, but people organized them AND sought to change the law, and eventually the NLRB passed. Segregation laws changed in part because people called for them to change, but also because people deliberately broke them, often paying in blood. I would certainly call that "promoting breaking of a law because of perceived problem with the law." You?

And you may argue that that was a different time, but we can give more current examples too. Sex between two men or women was illegal in many states before Lawrence V. Texas a few years ago. Efforts to c hange the laws worked in some states, but people were still having sex nonetheless--and sodomy laws wouldn't have been overturned in the Supreme Court unless a couple in Texas had gotten arrested in their bedroom!
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
28 Mar 2006
Matt,

I honestly can sleep with a clean conscience at night in regards to my family history. Whether or not 10 generations ago did this or that has absolutely no bearing on how I need to feel about my current opinions. I don't think it's hypocrytal at all to have a differing opinion than anyone in my ancestorial line...I think you share that opinion with your references to slavery and union labor.

You are again mixing apples and oranges, when bringing up Native Americans (which, supposedly I am part as well). In the context of history, that was a time of conquest. England was expanding it's kingdom at the expense of all "uncivilized" inhabitants...this doesn't make it right, but it's how the world was. Expecting that generation to live up to standards that were not in place for 500 more years is simply also not logical.

I appreciate the time you've taken and the discourse we've had. I don't hate or want anyone to have to suffer. I would just like everyone to respect our nations immigration laws, which haven't been an issue until the crimes are becomming more strict.

There is a way to immigrate and that needs to be respected. This issue is a far cry from any civil rights issue, which I could say needed law violations to overcome the oppressions.

What would you propose, then? If not actually enforcing our immigration law? Open borders for all to come and partake in our economic buffet without any restriction?
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
28 Mar 2006
Jones,

could you tell what are the legal ways to immigrate? Last time I checked, it was either the citizenship lottery, a student visa (which in many places you have buy bc of corrupt governements) and work visas (which are only for some workers.) Now with this new guest program, how many people will actually have to wait years before comming here? Is that fair? What about the paople that are already here?
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
28 Mar 2006
are you sure this law only beefs up the penatlies of existing laws? the fact that so many immigrants in this country live in horrible and racist conditions shows that the existing laws haven't been working the way they should, but regardless. if this gets passed it will now be a felony to illegally enter the country, where before it wasn't as serious. but doesn't this law also make it a felony to help illegal immigrants?

logically, immigrants in the united states, for the most part, are latin@, and the reason they're immigrating is because they're poor and are hoping for work, often to help their families across the border. how is it NOT racist to charge a church with "aiding and abetting" a felon for giving a mexican man some new shoes because he can't afford to buy a pair himself? america hasn't gone crazy. a lot of people are suffering, and this law will make them suffer a whole lot more, and they're standing up against it.

if the united states is so concerned about losing jobs to immigrants, maybe instead of labelling people "illegal" it should work to fix the economic problems that make people want to cross the border in the first place. that means lowering the global gap between the rich and the poor. the united states doesn't have the amount of economic power that it has because it has the smartest and most innovative people in the world. that's total bullshit- it's because of economic imperialism, and this law will be hurting people who are suffering from this imperialism even more.
Micah's Melodramatic Claims
28 Mar 2006
"so many immigrants in this country live in horrible and racist conditions"

--Such as what? Such as in Lawrence where they have completely altered the linguistic base, raised fire insurance rates, and made it so no Toyota Corolla is safe? White people did that to them? Is that your assertion? Which white people? Name five.

"doesn't this law also make it a felony to help illegal immigrants?"

--Yes it does. It should too. Aiding and abetting felons should be a felony. Micah should be seen as an apologist for felons. Piss him off and he would admit as much anyway. He advocates malicious spamming, and eco-vandalism with the Student Underground.

"the reason [latinos] immigrating [illegally] is because they're poor and are hoping for work,"

--Wrong. They are immigrating illegally because some opportunistic slave traders are shipping them into the US where they can escape the burden of improving THEIR OWN COUNTRY's economy and politics. And YOU support that.

"often to help their families across the border."

--Wrong again. The real case is that legal immigrants do often complain about how they have to do everything the right way to bring their families over slowly, while illegal aliens just sneak in and then reproduce like mad. That at least is the stated opinion of Dominicans about Puerto Ricans. Micah wouldn't know about this because he is from Appalachia and only recently moved to Boston. It is also why he is so melodramatic about the issue -- he is merely empathizing in the abstract about it. He has not heard legal aliens rant about illegal aliens and call them lowlife scum.

"how is it NOT racist to charge a church with "aiding and abetting" a felon"

--White people raising charges of racism against other whites is and always has been a comedy special. It should be treated as such. Churches should very well be charged with felonies if they commit them. Otherwise they would commit them with impunity. If the Unitarians keep pushing the socialist warfare they should be sent to break rocks and press license plates. But then I am not convinced that Micah actually gives a squat about churches. Churches are incompatible with his known public profile. So we can discount that.

"if the united states is so concerned about losing jobs to immigrants, maybe instead of labelling people "illegal" it should work to fix the economic problems that make people want to cross the border in the first place"

--It is not the obligation of the United States to make Mexico a viable country. That is the obligation of Mexicans, but alas they shirk that obligation by sneaking to our country.

"economic imperialism [blah blah blah]"

--That's just some old partisan jingoism. Most people tune out kids who spout off those big and tired old words. And rightly so.
Matt: We Are All Lawbreakers
28 Mar 2006
Matt, your break the law, everybody does it argument doesn't wash. Because Corporate America aided and abetted by the Liberal Media hates unions, labor laws since Harry Truman in the US are barely enforced. You can't organize new unions on a mass basis as was intended by the New Deal laws theoretically still in effect.

So blue collar work, which could be the Gateway for young African Americans and poor white Americans worker youth, is farmed out at ridiculous wages to illegals. Enforce the labor laws!

As for Mexico and the other corrupt, non-democratic countries these parasites bred in, their contribution to civilization has been nil. They and their populations could vanish off the face of the earth and the standard of living of everyone else would go up. (Oh I know about the Aztecs.) Sorry, we ARE better off without human sacrifice. At least the literal kind. The American worker has been sacrificed on the Altar of Political Correctness and Innigrant "Rights".
^^
28 Mar 2006
Word.
I am a heartless scum-bag.
28 Mar 2006
Laws are more important than human beings. I suck.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
Flipside:
Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens, not immigrants.

The most disturbing and unreported aspect of the proposed Federal legislation is the concept of building a fence along the U.S.-Mexican border.
The ecological consequences of this would be disastrous.
It would stop the jaguar's self-reintroduction into Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas, which has been happening over the last twenty years. It would sever black bear populations, newly re-established in Big Bend,TX, from their breeding populations in Chihuahua and Coauhuila. It would spell the end for the resurgent pronghorn populations of the Sonoran Desert. The impacts for other mammalian and reptilian species would be catastrophic. Is it worth it to destroy the integrity of our southwestern ecosystems for short-term political reasons?
Putting fences up and destroying a rich natural legacy for generations to come is too high a price to pay for visions of "Festung AMerika" to placate a transient political mood.
Deal with the issues; repeal NAFTA, globalize liberation, and dismantle the empire.
Once Mexican farmers can retain their land, and Americans surrender the unprecedented economic privilege which enables them to hire slave-wage nannies and gardeners and fast-food servers, immigration will cease to be an issue.
A living wage for all, and a waged living for all!
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
Is it not obvious that this is the result orchestrated by US corporate/military/financial imperialism? WTO and IMF create financial conditions that prevent any south of the border companies growing and competeing with US companies. US military with bases in Paraguay, Colombia and Ecuador are in position to continually prevent elections in SA and CA turning nationalistic and stopping the rip off of the mineral, oil and agricultural resources. Can we overlook the countries that the US has destabilized from CA to SA. Have we forgotten Reagan’s foray into CA. Bush’s invasion of Panama or the US tampering in Haiti, Colombia, Ecuador, Bolivia, or Chile. By actively preventing economic growth in this region the US prevents corporate competition with it’s own corporations and makes these countries dependent on US financial exploitation. With no worth while jobs to support their families of course people will immigrate here and become an opposing work force to US workers. This, of course, lowers wages for US workers as well. All to the benefit of US corporations. The 12 million illegal immigrants pay into SSI, fed and state taxes and sales taxes and get zip in return. The IRS benefits to the sum of 35 billion dollars each year from these people that get no benefits. Of course the republican rulers want to make them illegal. It helps to keep them looking over their shoulder and not asking for or gaining benefits from their labor. It is said that they are here to fill the jobs that Americans will not take. US workers will not take them because those jobs pay so low that they could not pay their rent. They stay low because immigrants are there to do them at that price. The US worker loses as well. Is this not as plain as the nose on your face? The answer is to remove the industrial military congressanal complex from our government that rules for the benifit of the rich at the expense of the rest of us. Oh shit there's a sale at the mall, see ya.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
Lexgreen hit it on the head's nail. The push for globalization in behalf of investors intead of people has made people poorer which in turn has forced many to emmigrate to richer countries. It's as simple as that.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
Lexgreen--

Interesting perspective...Americans won't take available jobs because the jobs don't pay a living wage.

Wouldn't they have to if we cut their government lifecord? Wouldn't they have to fill the open positions, maybe working 2 jobs to survive? Either that or become criminals to survive. I'd like to believe that most would survive legally...maybe I'm just a bit too optomistic.

I work 2 jobs, 1 full time and 1 part-time. That is my choice so I can be proud that I put the food on my families table. Also so I don't have to feel like I have to burden our society. My choices in life have made this something that I have to do. I think that mentality has been lost by many who are habitual "welfare kings and queens". Too many are looking for a quick way out, instead of putting in their time and working their way up.

It would be awesome if our society was not so polarized in terms of wealth...but the answer is not the government's to solve.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
"It would be awesome if our society was not so polarized in terms of wealth...but the answer is not the government's to solve."

Jones, that would apply if the government(s) and the corporations that supply them with $$ weren't at fault for creating the polarization of wealth as we see now. We've been sold the idea of "globalization" as the solution to all our problems, but in reality was the solution to all investors' problems and trickle-down economics. That's not a system that was organically created. It was a system imposed to us by our government(s). So a million times YES, they are at fault and we DESERVE to ask for more and a better world. A world where you kids don't have to work 2 jobs (I'm guessing that's what your parents wished for, anyway, but it's seems our generation is poorer and more in debt than the previous).
It's even simpler than "yo" and his friend said
29 Mar 2006
" which in turn has forced many to emmigrate to richer countries. It's as simple as that."

--Emigrate? No one has a problem with immigrants. The word you are looking for is "sneak." No self-respecting and hard working citizen whether white or brown has any respect for sneaks. Immigrants, si. Felones, no.

"Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens, not immigrants."

--I agree with that, and I also think they should repeat that mantra to themselves the next time they consider using foreign language or applying for the benefits which would be more appropriately applied to persons of less means and ability. The island government itself should also shit or get off the pot in deciding whether it is a state or a country, instead of getting the benefits of a mixed status.

"The ecological consequences of [a border wall] would be disastrous. It would stop the jaguar's self-reintroduction into Arizona,"

--Oh my god! Is that humor? Ecological reasons for allowing rampant illegal immigration? Now I've heard it all. What about fish ladders? Are those bad for Mexicans? Is the jaguar door in wall still big enough for a "coyote?" Inquiring minds want to know.

I am sure Bambi and all his friends would be destroyed if we kept illegal aliens from sneaking across the border. It goes without saying that homosexuals and spotted owls would also be severely compromised.

That was probably Micah's post. Never before have I met a human being with such an ability to string together non sequitors in defense of the frailest illegalities.

"A living wage for all, and a waged living for all!"

--Living wages are paid to persons with ingenuity. Only we don't call them wages. We call it profit.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
Yo,

The government allowed a free market to opperate where those who work prosper and those who don't...don't. If someone doesn't prosper, they really have no one to blame but themselves. The system isn't really flawed.

I don't really see how you could argue that wasn't the economy that was "originally" in the Americas. When the Pilgrims came, did they sit and wait for boats from England to provide their needs? No, they worked hard to provide for their needs.

I think that today's society believes that they have the right to have their needs met...without regard to the responsibility to pay for those things on their own. This socialist society takes all personal accountability out of society and doesn't have any individual pride. We've seen this fail miserably in many European and Asian countries...I hardly think that is a prosperous route for the United States to travel.

Still, we're off topic...what solution would you provide to solving the immigrants not respecting our laws and entering our country illegally? Walls are not really viable...the only real thing left is to stiffen the penalty for those entering illegally. What's your solution to this problem?
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
With all due respect, Jones, there are many myths in the system that you are talking about which are based on how the system itself has "taught us" to think. Instead of argumenting your points, I'd like to suggest a few readings which I think might interest you. Read them with a critical eye, but read on:

Howard Zinn
"A People's History of the United States"
Excerpts:
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/PeoplesHistory_Zinn.html

Max Weber
"The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism"
Excerpts:
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/WEBER/cover.html
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
Yo,

I'll get to reading these ASAP...but still was curious as to your solution to immigrants not respecting the immigration law.

I've now posed this question to you (yo) and Matt, each time I do not get a response. Seems like the discussion just gets diverted to how the US did something to deserve the breaking of the law. That's a fine opinion to have, but how do we solve the issue at hand? Let's play the cards we've been dealt, if you will.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
Immigrants cross the border illegally out of desperation, not out of a desire to do something illegal or work illegally in this country. Many have gone thru hell to get here and left their families behind. The roots for Mexican immigration are mostly economic, yes, but in Massachusetts, for example, most of them are war refugees from El Salvador, Colombia, Haiti. They are victims of wars that the US has helped fuel by supporting and arming repressive governments...

In regards to Mexican immigrants, NAFTA has increased poverty in Mexico which has forced more immigrants into the US, so instead of focusing on the immigrants themselves, we need to focus on the roots of immigration. And take responsibility for how our government has contributed to this...
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
Yo Jones,

1) There is no free market in the US

2) Besides that markets are morally abhorrent, anti-social and ultimately incompatible with human and environmental survival and that if left unchecked the market will annihilate both.

2) We need totally market abolition, but not in favor of central planning...rather in favor of full democratic participatory planning process of some sort.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
"demand what you deserve"? You have no standing to demand anything if you're in this country, or any other country, illegally! If you are here illegally then you are criminals. The immigration laws are enforceable just like any other laws. You can't just pick and choose which ones you want to obey. So-called "rights" are being made-up out of thin air to suit law-breakers. Every nation has the power to decide it's own immigration policy.It's not something that's left up to indiviual immigrants to decide on their own! To enter a country you must do it according to the established procedures or not at all!
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
I want to make sure I understand your stance. You are saying the immigrants were placed into a situation outside of their will, by the governments in power over them. As a result of this, they do not have to be held accountable for any action which they take that breaks the laws set forth by these same governments.

Wouldn't you agree that their actions out of desperation breaks a law? Are you asserting that desperation vetos any law? Wouldn't this assertion mean that any law is breakable if the right situation is present? If this is true, then why respect any law...couldn't you always find a way around any law?

Respectfully and just trying to understand.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
Sorry, last post is from me to Yo...I mistyped :)
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
The problem is not markets per se johnothan, it is capitalist markets, there is a difference. Markets have been around almost as long as people. Capitalist markets, were labor is bought and sold to make profit for nonlaborers, is quite different. I am amazed at your ability to steal directly from Albert yet not cite him as the source of you rhetoric.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
Actually Brad that was in part from paraphrasing Chomsky from a talk he gave in 1970 called “government in the future”...not from Albert but you are correct that he has a similar analyses. Again I do think that problem is exactly markets "per se" Socialist markets have been just as disastrous and undemocratic as their capitalist counterparts.

You can listen to the talk here:
http://www.zmag.org/altradio/0212nc1970.mp3
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
29 Mar 2006
Actually, there is nothing humorous about the idea of building a wall across the Mojave, Sonoran, and Chihuahuan Deserts. Just look at the effect of one highway, the Tamiami Trail, in South Florida, on Florida panther populations. Does anyone really expect that the builders of this wall would do environmental impact statements? And the idea of "jaguar doors" is ridiculous. Any such breaches in the wall would be heavily guarded by ICE, because coyotes(the human ones) and their "customers" could also slip through. Read a little bit about large carnivore behavior, and you will realize that this would totally disrupt their dispersal patterns.
Go spend some time on the border. Go to Big Bend, or to Organ Pipe Cactus. See the effects of militarization of the border on scientific research and our ecological heritage. Large mammals are affected by militaristic barriers, walls, fences, sensors, increased vehicular presence, lights, sensors, etc.
Is it really worth it to endanger our deserts to implement a social policy which is doomed to failure, anyway? Why not deal with the social conditions producing immigrant influx? That would be a longterm solution. Building a wall will do nothing to stem immigration but make it more dangerous, costly, and promote further police state measures. But it definitely will impact wildlife.
Micah did not write that previous post, I did. If Micah wrote it, he would have put his name on it.
And by the way, jaguars are no friends of "Bambi." Jaguars lie in wait for Bambi, jump on him, and sink their canine teeth into the base of his skull, killing him. Then they eat him.
They once ranged as far east as Louisiana, and will again, if shortsighted jingoistic politicians don't screw up our desert.
Re: the unrepentant whiteboys' commentary
30 Mar 2006
"Which white people? Name five"
lou dobbs, bill o'reilly, jay severin, rush limbaugh, and umm... robert goodwin (aka flippityflop) (though that gives him waaay too much credit)

"shipping them into the US where they can escape the burden of improving THEIR OWN COUNTRY's economy and politics"
tell me flapjacks, why is it such a BURDEN to improve things in their own countries? hmmm? are you minutemen wannabe's ever going to accept the us government's role (along with other capitalist plutocracies) in creating the massive poverty and corruption and war in the countries where these immigrants come from? didn't think so.

"while illegal aliens just sneak in and then reproduce like mad"
hey guess what, they're actually doing you law-loving americans a favor by increasing your numbers, since all those legions of kids born on this side of the line are americans, just like you, and that makes america stronger! yay! (by the way, wasn't it flipper claiming there were no people at the last immigrant rally...?)

"stiffen the penalty for those entering illegally"
that worked wonders with the war on drugs. now there's hardly any drug problem, and all those brown people who were once complaining about the druggies are free to start profiting, as they should be.

"what has the anti-war movement done to get immigrants out? Have they publicized in immigrant neighborhoods? In non-English media?"
yes, and yes. assuming you count thousands of flyers, and driving around in trucks announcing the marches in spanish. (though organizers in more immigrant neighborhoods need to be brought in, and reaching people through churches and spanish or kreyol media is something which we all need to learn to do in our organizing.) one big advantage they had though, was they are calling for the defeat of a bill in congress, and pressuring elected officials. that's a big difference from calling for systemic economic justice and stopping a trillion-dollar war machine.

will someone from the dark side please try to address an obvious issue that's being avoided here?-- why is it that capital can move trillions of dollars a day across borders, and governments move mountains to 'remove barriers to trade', while at the same time labor is crushed when it attempts to balance the equation by crossing borders too? why do these same governments do all they can to deny people who just want a shot at a decent job the chance to get it? the immigration laws are not even an issue as far as i can tell- the real issue is why this hypocrisy is allowed to happen, and the answer is because the system is run by rich people. CAPITALists. it's their job to screw over anyone who gets in the way of their precious profits. just as it's our job to get in their way, to support those courageous people who risk their lives to find a better life, and to risk something here in our comfortable and ordered lives to destroy this rotten system.

this march kicked ass- nice to see a real mobilization of poor people of color in boston. see you all on the flip side of the revolution. it's happening all around us. yesterday los angeles, today france, tomorrow all over the planet! si se puede!
Light from the Dark Side
30 Mar 2006
Shell asks the Dark Side, why can capital cross borders legally but not people (without papers)?

Mr. Darko will answer your somple minded question. Capital crosses borders when there is a project that needs to be funded in a place. The Captial is not invested unless it produces a return, i.e., profit. Profit dear child includes a premium for risk. Often if the investment is successful, the profit is re-invested in the same nation, producing greater productivity, employment and revenues to the local governments. It is a net gain for the investor, net gain for the locality absorbing the capital. If it isn't, the investment ceases.

Now as for human capital, immigrants, that can work in a similar way. Much legal immigration does work that way. But the difference between the planned inviestment scenario and the current anarchy in illegal immigration is the word anarchy, much-beloved by people of late adolescence and a smattering of education.

The immigrants are a net cost to the US right now; they draw out more than they produce. Because they tend to have large families, they suck out educaiion and medicaid expenses from society which by and large they don't pay for. Why? Most don't pay income taxes or property taxes. Also, lower income people in general pay an insignificant amount of the taxes in this country. Tax cuts aside, the wealthier still foot the bill for pubilc services in the US. (Sorry to you neo-marxist, progressive and do gooder liberal tax the rich folks out there).

Illegals also repatriate billions back to Mexico. Opening a few Mexican restaurants is not significant nor important to the long range investment needs of the US, which suffers from a horrible trade deficit that will eventually trigger collapse of the dollar. (Now that will stop illegals in their tracks!).

Investment capital good-efficient. Illegal unplanned unproductive subsidized labor bad. OK?

Tomorrow will be a lesson in why a nation has the right to control its own culture. Only when the USA tries to control its cultural essence does teh word "racism" fly out. Other countries control their cultural identity and their borders, and the "progressives" do not issue a frown.

The professor is off to work now. It's still Dark.
Reality check
30 Mar 2006
here's what you said:
"Capital crosses borders when there is a project that needs to be funded in a place. The Captial is not invested unless it produces a return, i.e., profit. Profit dear child includes a premium for risk. Often if the investment is successful, the profit is re-invested in the same nation, producing greater productivity, employment and revenues to the local governments. It is a net gain for the investor..."

here's what everyone heard:
"capital blahblah profit blah profit blahblah investments blah blah returns blah productivity blah blah profit blah net gain for the investor."

"Illegal unplanned unproductive subsidized labor bad."
In other words, the rich people don't get what they were expecting to get out of the golden goose. All the more reason for us to encourage free movement across borders- this monstor is coming down, and it's going to take a lot of sulking capitalists down with it.

"why a nation has the right to control its own culture ... cultural essence ..."
you're shitting me right? did any of the various european invaders ask the people living in arawak or aztec country about what their cultural preferences were before they turned the people living there into slaves in the gold mines and started testing the sharpness of their swords by chopping off people's limbs? why is it that people "south of the border" speak spanish? and why is your vision of america's "cultural essence" so goddamn monochromatic? spare me the RACIST bullshit, pilgrim.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
30 Mar 2006
A solution that does not involve picking on people who came here only to gain a better economic future is to criminalize employers that would hire illegals. When jobs for illegals dry up they will go home on their own. It is about time that corporations where spanked for causeing this problem.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
30 Mar 2006
Ok Darko how does subsidies corn fit into your neat little model? What happens when that corn causes a 50% reduction in the price paid for domestically grown corn and that displaces millions of peasants and forces them to migrate?

Your model is also flawed in that there is not necessarially a net gain for the locality, because as you said the investor is seeking profit, which means they are seeking to extract surplus from the locality in the form of human labor. This means that investors don't go around throwing money out to help people, they go around looking for ways to make the people make them money. If you want to talk straight statistics we can, if you look at the mexican economy you can see that "liberalizing" trade and FDI has been disastrous. Not quite the win-win your abstract model shows.

Which brings us to the question of why capital can move but labor cannot? Because than captial would loose its advantage over labor and its ability to extract surplus from it would be diminished.

The immigrants are a net cost to the US how? So the work they perform and the surplus they create for US businesses is not a gain, it is different than if it were done in their native locality? As far as income tax and property tax, the former is the reason to grant them all citizenship and the latter is paid by all who live here unless they are homeless (directly or through rent that then the landlord pays).

The best part is this " lower income people in general pay an insignificant amount of the taxes in this country. Tax cuts aside, the wealthier still foot the bill for pubilc services in the US." First, by your own scenario if we payed labor more, which would increase their wealth, then we would increase tax revenues. Sounds like social democracy to me. Second, Big business is the biggest federal expense there is, which means that while it is true that the wealthy pay for most of the tax revenue in the country they also benifit by getting the most subsidies, corporate tax breaks, write offs, govt grants etc..

Your investment capital is efficient because it externalizes the social costs onto the foriegn locality and out of the hands of the multinational corp. While your undocumented unplanned and supposedly unproductive immigrant labor is unable to externalize the social costs of low wages onto anybody except the wealthy, we gain the most from it so should have to foot the highest % of the bill. But no if we invoke zenophobia across the whole nation we can externalize the cost of keeping them out to the whole citizenry and stop paying the actuall cost of duing business.

You might want to rework you models there prof.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
30 Mar 2006
Wow, how did this board suddenly change to an "I'm right, you're wrong" debate. Stop acting like children. How do you expect anyone to have a conversation where every post is counterposting. I know it's hard and I've done it, but please try to not post to show where the previous poster is wrong, attempt to post to show what your vision is or to better understand mine.

Thanks.
For Jones
30 Mar 2006
"Wouldn't you agree that their actions out of desperation breaks a law? Are you asserting that desperation vetos any law? Wouldn't this assertion mean that any law is breakable if the right situation is present? If this is true, then why respect any law...couldn't you always find a way around any law?"

Nope, what I'm saying is that people focus on the immigrants themselves as law breakers, right? I'm not focusing on them but on the roots of immigration. Why are there so many people the border? What kind of stability do they need to stay in their country? How do policies in our country contribute to such mass migration? How has NAFTA affected immigration? How do us supporting repressive governments in El Salvador and Colombia create that need to emmigrate? And for those who are already here... whom are law abiding (except for crossing the border, I guess), hard-working people, with families and probably kids, how do we help them integrate into society? That's a sticking point for many...

What I'm saying is that we should look at the LARGER picture instead of adopting whatever prejudice based on fear that we have, because that hardly ever offers solutions. You look at the root of the problem.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
30 Mar 2006
Yo,
I understand wanting to get to the root of the issue, that would be ideal and much more complicated. Many of the theories you suggest as to why they came over should be studied to see if they have a hand in the immigration problem. I don't think they can be accepted as fact at this point, if you have any factual reading on these issues, I would appreciate links to review.

I would like to get to the root cause of the problem, as well. Unlike you, it seems, I am not willing to allow any world citizen to break American law in the meantime. We have the same goal, as I think most Americans have. We want to live peacefully, lawfully and strive for the best possible life. I think we need to set aside political partisianship and start doing what is right, not just what will keep "our side" in power.
It's important to remember
30 Mar 2006
It's important to remember that we live in a highly segregated society. People don't know about each others protests b/c the lines between us act as walls.

It's hard enough to get a white peacnik to a march. It's really hard to organize across class and race lines for anything, including (maybe especially) peace and justice movements.

These protests by the latin community are very exciting and a really good sig for democracy. The media is falling all over itself trying to downplay it.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
30 Mar 2006
Here's a good study which I think highlights much of the reasons why immigrants in MA come here:

http://www.cpcs.umb.edu/~uriarte/Recent%20Work/final%20EDITED%20DRAFT%20

"Experts on the Colombian migration to the United States point to three waves of migration.20 The first, which corresponds to the period between 1950 and 1970, resulted from a civil war known as La Violencia during which 200,000 persons died. The migration involved all social classes, but lower and lower-middle classes prevailed in a migration composed largely of young men escaping political turmoil. This changed somewhat at the end of this period, when a more normal situation prevailed in Colombia, and those who sought to migrate to the U.S. were primarily middle-and upper-class men seeking education or economic opportunities. This period was short-lived, though, as it yielded in the 1980’s to drug-related violence in Colombia and a somewhat different wave of immigrants. Colombians, again mostly middle- and upper-middle-class men and their families, left their country in spite of relative economic prosperity to escape the widespread escalation of violence."

And this is all the military aid we've sent to Colombia (notice is in million of dollars):
http://www.ciponline.org/facts/co.htm

Now, we could go into "why" we're willing to fuel a civil war in Colombia... But I'm guessing you & I would differ much on that point.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
30 Mar 2006
Yo,
I skimmed the first link and found that to be more of the issues the latino population face in Massachusetts as opposed to why they migrate to America...maybe I'll have to read closer. However, that may be a moot point, I would assume that any immigrant wants our freedoms, safties and rights...I totally understand that.

What I'm still looking for is your solution to the immigrants who are here illegally, what do we do with or to them. I think you overlook this issue in the discussion, it's great to fix the total problem, but our nation needs band aids until that can be acheived.

If not toughening the penalties and enforcing the laws...how else do you solve this issue? Regardless of any possible underlying issues involved, which still may need to be addressed. Solving the underlying issue only won't make the 12 million who are already here illegally disappear, just as ousting the 12 million won't solve the underlying issue. I concede that.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
30 Mar 2006
You mean, I were president? hahahaha I would legalize all immigrants currently in the US and give them opportunities to educate themselves. Count my assests on how educated citizens can make me more $$. I would also expand multilingual education in all public schools, because we need as many workers who speak other languages to trade w/the rest of the world. Europe has a huge advantage over us on this. How could the Spanish-speaking US citizens help me trade and provide services to LAmerica? The market is huge over there.

Instead of policing the borders (which is an impossibility), I would chase down coyotes (smugglers) and raise penalties on anyone engaged in human trafficking.

I would also draw incentive plans with Mexico to aid people to go back to their country and reunite them w/their families. That is, build community-based economies (instead of massive forced globalization), so that local communities could thrive instead of feeling like they had to come to the US. Go from monocropping to permaculture.

And of course, I would stop selling weapons to repressive governments...

ah, in an ideal world I could dream of anything...
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
30 Mar 2006
Yo,
In regards to the illegal immigrants (I also appreciate knowing how you would fix the root problem) basically, what I read from your last post is that you advocate amnesty for all currently in the country. Doing nothing about those who have broken the law, but focusing on the root cause of their crime.

Do you feel that this basically gets these immigrants what they initially wanted without having to honor or respect the law?

I agree that the focus shouldn't be on policing borders, that would honestly put our resources towards the wrong area.

Would you agree that we need to set an example for other immigrants who may think about entering illegally? If not, why have any immigration law whatsoever? Wouldn't they think that we would eventually grant them amnesty, since we've done it for others?

I know I've asked a lot of questions, but I honestly don't seem to think as you. Do you honestly not believe that these people have any responsibility for breaking the law? Furthermore, that there should be no recourse for their crime?
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
30 Mar 2006
It depends what the crime is... Are they guilty of being poor & war refugees? Are they guilty of companies who offer low slavery wages that no US citizen would take? Or are they victims? just a thought.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
30 Mar 2006
Jones, your question is what to do about immigrants? Assuming that people come to this country for economic reasons, then one thing to do would be to improve the conditions in the country of origin. Instantly the reaction, "We can't be helping every country on the planet!" But all that US citizens need to do to 'help' another country's economy is to get their government (and corporations) to stop plundering it with things like "Free Trade Agreements" and structural adjustment programs foisted upon them by the World Bank and IMF (apparati of the US and West). If people could make a living where their family is, then most likely you wouldn't have so many risking life and limb to come to a foreign land to be derided/insulted/scapegoated for trying to make a living.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
30 Mar 2006
I guess this is were we fundamentally differ...I don't think it is acceptable to break a law, no matter what the circumstance. And if I choose to do so...I would accept the consequences.

These immigrants made a choice to bypass the lawful route to enter our country. That is an indesputable fact and they do not need any reward for that action, they only deserve punishment.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
30 Mar 2006
When your family is starving you care little about laws. The vast majority of laws broken are broken out of desperation because of inequity of oppertunity. Solve that problem and the laws won't even be necessary.
brad's world
30 Mar 2006
aka darko. brad and you america hating lefties.

the biggest federal expense is not corporate subsidies, which suck, as that is socialism. the biggest federal expenses are medicaid, medicare and social security. those are ersatz phony insurance programs that would make Barnum and Karl Marx proud. the so called immigrant rights folks want to allow the illegals to plunder these funds that are funded not primarily by payroll taxes which workers pay but by income taxes paid mostly by the wealthy and corporations, and by borrowing. So illegal immigrant rights only get the US deeper into the DEBTHOLE. When the economy collapses, see how "hard working" these "immigrants" are. back to Mexico, El Salvador, Honduras? Oh no. they and their duped white lib supporters will want illegals to drink at the trough. School systems are also under huge strain to educate the cancer like spread of little illegalanos. These people are another lumpen dependency class that will suck life out of the productive people of the USA who foolishly I guess obey the law, serve in the military and pay taxes. We Americans salute the American flag, not the banner of Mexico, unlike the traitors you support.

Birth Control/abortion subsidies and a ticket back to Guatamala and the other armpit nations these people come from is the only subsidy this taxpayer wants to send their way.

Keep abortion safe and legal!
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
30 Mar 2006
Sorry feller but if you include military spending (corporate warfare welfare) then corporate subsidies are the biggest federal expense. The medicare, medicade and SS as the biggest expense is a big right wing anti government myth. Social Security is funded by a special fund payed by workers and has a huge (read 44 billion) surplus that congress is using as collateral to fund the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Hardly a huge drain on the system. But if you think these are a big problem than the real lumpen class seems to be the retirees. It is sort of rediculous that people can stop working at 50 and spend the next 30 years sucking the life out of the economy. Which by the way needs new workers to just cover the baby boomers, so there is a woker shortage if anything.

I agree that having undocumented workers is a drain and should be solved by legalizing and allowing them to pay their share. Most conservative folks hate that idea because they will be outcompeted in the job market and have to actually work at their jobs. No more leaning on the shovel John, Jose actually wants to work.

Flags are stupid tools of the elite to get the workers to fight against eachother instead of the true enemy stealing a large part of their pay check.

Oh, I don't hate america, I just love humanity more.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
31 Mar 2006
"The vast majority of laws broken are broken out of desperation because of inequity of oppertunity. Solve that problem and the laws won't even be necessary."

Give me a break, this is America, if you work hard enough you can achieve anything. Maybe your parents didn't teach you that little bit of truth. Inequity of opportunity only exists if you don't seize the opportunity to make the most out of your life. Laws will always be necessary because some people will never understand what true opportunity is. They may see the open bank vault as their chance to make it big, when, in actuality, their best chance is between their ears.

If you, as Yo does, really want to get to the root of problems. Look inward as well as outward. We live in a society which glamorizes and glorifies many things that directly conflict with what it really takes to succeed in the "real world". Stop buying into this, stop consumer bankrolling Hollywood who further glamorizes this attitude. In a free market, the almighty dollar makes the rules...this psuedo Hollywood reality only exists because consumers want it to.

The root of welfare and poverty is not that people need money, that's the band-aid solution, just as kicking out all illegal immigrants is a band aid on the real problems.

The root of the problem is that people aren't working and making enough money for themselves, they are depending on the government to do this...sometimes using "lack of opportunity" as a scapegoart. Why continue the viscous cylce of scapegoating. Education is the key to unlocking your earning potential...bottom line. Nothing else can "hold you back" if you have empowered yourself with knowledge.

Just an oppinion fromt he desk of Jones...
Brad's Flag
31 Mar 2006
the american flag represents a flawed country. True. But you can love humanity all you want. It was America that defeated Hitler. It was America that caused the collapse of an evil (and it was) empire, Soviet Union. The communists butchered over 30 million, deprived hundreds of miilions of human rights. That doesn't include China. Ask the people of Poland or Russia which flag represented liberty: the hammer and sickle or the stars and stripes. criticize america for her mistakes, yes. but america represents ideals that no other nation has bled for or practiced as consistently for over 200 years. You favor the immigrants who are illegal living here, not in Mexico, China or Brazil. Why? They want to live here. Yes it's primarily economic. But it's also a nation that does know what civil rights are (unlike Mexico). It is a country that has had relatively honest politics, even if our politicians are idiots (and what politicians aren't?).

This is a great country. We have this debate on this website. Could we do this in Cuba or China, or in Breznev's soviet union? I think not.

God bless you, and god bless america.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
31 Mar 2006
I agree with the above post GOD BLESS AMERICA. Those who illegally come here are not welcome. Those who choose to come here legally, learn the language and respect the flag are welcomed with open arms.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
01 Apr 2006
Not that it matters but the soviets defeated hitler. Read your history books, far more russians died than americans.

As for immigrants comming here and learning "the language", which language are you refering to? The US has *no* official language, unlike in france where it is french and mexico where it is spanish. Look that one up too while you have your book out.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
01 Apr 2006
There are some things that are "de facto." Look that one up brad.
Re: Comrade Brad
01 Apr 2006
Stalin begged Roosevelt and Churchill to open teh Western Front. Our bombers pulverized the Nazi cities (and civilians-goody). Oh, we also lost several hundred thousand lives to the Japanese, who you probalbly think were right to bomb Pearl Harbor because they are not white. Brad, the color you really favor is Red.

Your mentality demonstrates that the illegal immigrants and their leftist defenders like you really don't like America and values of property rights, cultural differences, and limited government. Clearly you would be happier in a prison-state like Cuba which is your model of a race-friendly, democratic nation. Funny how Cuba doesn't get many immigrants, nor does North korea, Vietnam, Laos, or even China (they shoot immigrants, don't they?).
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
01 Apr 2006
america is number one. yay. let's all drive our hummers back to our cubicles, eat wonder bread with american cheese, and watch shows about young people who desperately want to be models.
you're from where? brazil? why don't you go back to africa, haw haw.
america number one, yay.
The very democratic priciples of don't say that about MY country.
01 Apr 2006
"you really don't like America and values of property rights, cultural differences, and limited government."

Now you are telling me what I like. Thats classic conservative discourse, "the liberals all think this", "they all hate america". Why don't you let people decide and define for themselves what it is that they like, think or what their beleifs are. Or is that too much freedom for ya? Is it that you disagree or that you think they don't have the right to think bad thoughts about things you like? If so, is that any sort of freedom? Is it a democracy if you get to decide what others think, say or do? How is your position different than Bin Laden or any other Mullah or dictator (that you seem to think I am acting like)? I think it is you who espouses to be King Jung Ill, by controling and limiting the thoughts, perspectives and limits of the society. That is unamerican and undemocratic to the very core. No wonder you go around proclaiming to be all about freedom and democracy, because deep down you hate these ideals and the freedom of thought they allow and prosper. Think about that one Comrade.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
01 Apr 2006
I'll try and avoid things that have already be said by making this short.

how can we say people are "illegal." Quite honestly, the United States has no right to dictate law. First, (fight me all you want on this- but honestly research it before you respond) the subjects of this country are not governed by consent by the Lockean definition in which our government is founded on. Second, we have no adherance to international law. Third, the neo-liberal, pro American bussiness reforms that have been instituted with pressure from the United States has been incredibly detrimental to the bulk of citizens in Latin American countries in which people are migrating from.
Lastly, have you ever tried to immigrate? It's a hell of a lot harder then you think.

Thanks,
-Hali
Answer...
01 Apr 2006
"how can we say people are "illegal"."

America has an immigration law...if you migrate to America and do not follow this law, you are illegal. Doesn't really matter how hard the law is to follow or what American policy that you perceive to be harming you in your home land. If you break American law...you are a criminal in America.

Hopefully you don't take that as a "smart" answer...but this is why I would call any illegal immigrant, illegal.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
01 Apr 2006
"America has an immigration law...if you migrate to America and do not follow this law, you are illegal."

No you have commited an illegal act, you are not illegal. Don't be stupid.
Technically Brad
01 Apr 2006
"No you have commited an illegal act, you are not illegal."

Ok Brad, let's simplify things. They wouldn't be a US citizen committing an illegal act, they'd be a citizen of a foreign land attempting to immigrate to America illegally. Agreed? So the proper term for a non-US citizen would be an alien? http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/alien (link just in case you feel like arguing with Webster)

So, technically, the term illegal alien should suffice and they would be, in fact, illegal.
Brad's Bottom Line
02 Apr 2006
See, here is the problem with brad. If it is anti-american, brad likes it. If it is pro-american, he hates it. So there is no use arguing with him. In my humble opinion, brad is probably just some frustrated 1960s hippie wanna be who should be ignored.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
02 Apr 2006
First of all, the term "illegal alien" is redundant, any documented citizen would not call themselves a "legal alien" they would just say citizen or temporary citizen. So if you want to call undocumented citizens aliens that would technically be correct, but don't be redundant.

As far as my patriotism is concerned, here is a short list of all of the things I love about this country;

Freedom to speak, assemble, worship, bare arms (yes I am a gun owner), disagree with the president, disagree with the laws of this country, disagree with the ideology of the majority of the country, disagree with undemocratic ideologs who think the bill of rights should be burnt, right to be a communist, socialist, anarchist, athiest, christian, jew, muslim, buddists, scientologist, wican, pagen, republican, democrat, independent, libertarian, corporate whore, wage slave, or welfare mom, I also like the right you have to say what I think is total crap and I have the right to say the same back to you, I also like the right to oppose oppresion whereever I see it, to oppose human rights abuses whether by my government or others, right to oppose corporate rule or mob rule, etc..........I could go on for hours.

That being said, how does that change the fact that this country is not perfect and therefore should be pushed and challenged to become so?
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
02 Apr 2006
Umm brad. Do some research, or at least ensure that brain is in gear before engaging mouth or in this case fingers. A documented alien is someone who is here on a visa.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
02 Apr 2006
The right to "bare arms?" does that mean you have the right to wear a tank top whenever you want?
No redundancy here, thanks for playing
02 Apr 2006
Calling a statement redundant says that it is repetitive. An alien does not imply legality...it simply states that the person being described is from another country. So you could be a legal, or an illegal alien.

I think this lack of understanding of the America language seeps through to your lack of understanding of American law.

"...that this country is not perfect and therefore should be pushed and challenged to become so? "

Perfection cannot be achieved, no matter how hard you try. Our system is probably the best in the world...but is still deeply flawed. We now routinely choose between the lesser of two evils...all I want to do is choose what is right (non-contextually speaking).
racist technicalities
02 Apr 2006
@ now you want to use the terms documented and undocumented; "a documented alien is someone who is here on a visa", which is exactly what I said. Also if you want to say an alien who is here illegally or an alien who is here legally, those are also common legal terms. Using the slang term "illegals" is especially valgar and not really appropriate and adding alien behind it does not really make sense (what is the illegal act you are refering to).

Illegal: adjective
1. Prohibited by law or by official or accepted rules
Alien: noun
1. A person who comes from a foreign country; someone who does not owe allegiance to your country

But you are right it is not redundant, only idiotic.


I don't wear tank tops, I just roll up my sleeves above my shoulders.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
02 Apr 2006
What the hell are you trying to say?
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
02 Apr 2006
What the hell are you trying to say?
Rebuttal
02 Apr 2006
"how can we say people are "illegal." "

--Actually, we said they reside here illegally, not that they are alive illegally. (Please try to grasp the english language better if you are residing here legally.) The slogan "no person is illegal" is therefore based on a moronic misunderstanding of english.

"the United States has no right to dictate law. "

--I hope you do not live in the United States, because you are an enemy of US citizens. The United States has every right to determine it's own laws and to determine the outward policy to foreign nations who violate our sovereignty or otherwise impinge upon our national functionality.

"the subjects of this country"

--You might be a subject, but that is only because you do not own a firearm. Speak for yourself. This country also has citizens.

"the Lockean definition in which our government is founded on."

--Not exclusively. Also, you just confessed that you are also a citizen of this government, albeit one with no civic education, and outright hostility to your countrymen. Swine. You cannot appeal to constitutionality and also disavow the country. Your posture is based on the safety and effeminate obesity of the high-school/college intellectual class. You are at best a renter of a stance.

"we have no adherance to international law. "

--eg socialist law and the figurehead confederacy of african and banana republics. No we are not. We are the leaders of the international structure.

"Third, the neo-liberal, "

--Abject Garbage. The sentence may not even finish.

"been incredibly detrimental to the bulk of citizens in Latin American countries"

--That is just a lame attempt to excuse illegal immigration. Latin Americans are obligated to improve their own countries. We are not obligated to import them or stop beating them in the international competition.

"have you ever tried to immigrate?"

--To where? Iceland?
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
02 Apr 2006
Brad, I must say that you really make no sense. Your title "Racist Technicalities" is just silly. What is racist about immigration laws? What race do the laws discriminate against? If I am not mistaken, the laws apply across the board and, if they were enforced across the board, can't be considered racist. But wait. Perhaps you are correct. Because the laws tend to be enforced more to thedetriment of white European would-be immigrants, the laws are de facto racist ... against white Europeans.
Poor white folk
02 Apr 2006
You and I both know that the overwhelming majority of undocumented aliens are of latino/a descent, therefore it is a racist law. Also the current immigration laws grant citizenship based on country of origin with an imbalace against the countries that the vast majority of immigrants come from.

If you wish I could make the argument that the whole notion of nations and nationalism is based on rasism and division to empower the elite, but that would probably be over your head (full of big words and complex theories). Easier to just hate browny and watch out for our own kind, huh.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
02 Apr 2006
Spare me the "the argument that the whole notion of nations and nationalism is based on rasism and division to empower the elite, but that would probably be over your head (full of big words and complex theories)." I wouldn't want you to get a brain overload with the big words and complex theories. Nothing that you have written thus far even remotely borders on the complex. For that matter, nothing even borders on being an argument. For the most part you simply throw out tired cliches.
The Irrationality of Antiracists
02 Apr 2006
"You and I both know that the overwhelming majority of undocumented aliens are of latino/a descent, therefore it is a racist law."

Antiracists have also said:

"Some facts are racist."

Meaning that Antiracists practice situational ethics and have no working concept of even the most impure objectivity.

An anti-racist may as well say:

"Laws against selling crack are racist since those imprisoned are primarily gang members of African American descent."

Hell, we should just allow all forms of crime and decadence for fear of offending minorities via their self-appointed white spokes-students.
top of the morning to ye brad!
02 Apr 2006
you poor besotten soul. did ye not see the lads from ireland demonstratin' to be legal? wht's this blarney about the immigration law bein racist?

have another one lad. ya need it.
Brad's Time Machine
03 Apr 2006
just noticed a bradovian anachronism. you claim immigration law based on "country of origin", therefore racist. oops!!!!!!! Not so since 1965.
Have another Guiness.
Feller's sloppy research
03 Apr 2006
While the 1965 act did end country of origin it supplanted it with a hemishpere quota, which is just as racist.

"The Immigration and Nationality Act Amendments of 1965 (the Hart-Cellar Act) abolished the system of national-origin quotas. There was, for the first time, a limitation on Western Hemisphere immigration (120,000 per year), with the Eastern Hemisphere limited to 170,000. Most of these numbers were allocated to immigrants who were relatives of United States citizens."

As you can see it allows for more Eastern Hemisphere immigration than Western Hemisphere immigration , which is illogical in that immigration tends to take place across shorter distances when possible.

Also there is a long history of racist behaviour towards the Irish.

Flipside, crack laws are racist because the punishment is alot more severe than cocaine and were implemented that way in full knowledge of the difference in both the price of the drugs and the racial useage. Who the hell ever said "some facts are racist"? There is nothing situational in saying that all laws that affect a certain race differently than others is a racist law. That is completely objective. We should just balance the laws so that they affect all races equally. Or would that offend your white privlege?
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
03 Apr 2006
I pledge of allgience to the flag to the United States of America and to the republic in which it stands in one nation under
Cornball Race Card
03 Apr 2006
Brad,

I wouldn't care if crack dealers were *executed* for their crimes. I wouldn't particularly care if white people or black people were the specific recipients of the execution. I would not care if more whites than blacks or more blacks than whites were executed. I would not care if an entire race of people were eliminated by the law against crack dealing.

It's not my *job* to preserve endangered species of the human persuasion. Also, if an entire race or a majority of a race were sent to the skull pile for being dopes like that, it's all the more room left for me. There is no human shortage. Any tree-hugger will confirm that.

"There is nothing situational in saying that all laws that affect a certain race differently than others is a racist law."

Yeah there is. Alleging de *jure* racism where there is only de *facto* racism is demagoguery, and alleging de facto *racism* by whites where there is actually de facto *racial propensity* by BLACKS to become crack dealers, is situational.

But you are not done. If all the crack dealers were Irish, you'd concoct some class issue to sustain your bitterness. But in the normal case, you simply idolize drug dealing as revolutionary. To play your warped game of moralism, I counter: Crippled black schoolgirls in wheelchairs from spinal gunshot wounds are on *your* tab then. Dig in your pocket. While you are at it, Let's buy crack dealers a new home and give them a wide screen television set for their bravery and wisdom in selling crack and murdering people. You owe them too.

Or do I owe crack dealers? After all, I as a white person personally enslaved them all 250 years ago. There again is the absurdity of your situational ethics. They require an imaginary situation. And yet you call ME names.

Again, it is easy for you, an anonymous student to accuse me of having white privilege. What about *your* privilege of anonymity that keeps your face intact?

Conclusion:

We cannot warp the laws to punish white people for "making" black people become crack dealers or glamorize crack dealing. I don't even reinforce that type of behavior. And no amount of name calling on your part makes it so. You, in fact, are the one ready to blame everybody but the criminal for crime. And you not even with the fortitude to commit crime. HAH!
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
03 Apr 2006
"--Actually, we said they reside here illegally, not that they are alive illegally. (Please try to grasp the english language better if you are residing here legally.) The slogan "no person is illegal" is therefore based on a moronic misunderstanding of english." -FLIPSIDE

All I'm saying, when your a five year old kid and your parents immigrate here and you can't get healthcare- that's what it means to exist outside the, ever oh so just, "law." Personally, I'm not here to argue about English, you can argue yourself in circles all you want my friend. Whats moronic, to me anyway, is not giving a kid healthcare.


"--You might be a subject, but that is only because you do not own a firearm. Speak for yourself. This country also has citizens.? - FLIPSIDE

HAHA, so if I owned a firearm I would be a citizen? oh, I like that one. Anyway, back to reality... you are a "subject" when you are subjected to governmental law. You are a citizen when you are governed by consent.... As discussed below.


"-.... Also, you just confessed that you are also a citizen of this government, albeit one with no civic education, and outright hostility to your countrymen. Swine. You cannot appeal to constitutionality and also disavow the country. Your posture is based on the safety and effeminate obesity of the high-school/college intellectual class. You are at best a renter of a stance." -FLIPSIDE

Then, Oink - Oink... Haha. Oh darling, I have plenty of "civic education," and by now I think you have the idea that I am nowhere near hostile to anyone. I love humanity, the love life in all forms, even arabic- oh!- even latinos- oh!- and will do anything that I can to see to it that it is sustained. I am hostile to the idea of patriotism because I believe in democracy- in the literal sense, and equality. Constitutionally, actually what I'm saying is: although I don't belive the consitution to be well framed and there are many structural flaws... Not everyone agrees with me. I understand that. But, even if they fully believe that constitution is just and right- then they should understand the concept of consent and it's definition as given by the bastion of patriotism- John Locke. Consent is a contract. The individual give their tacit or express consent and gives up their right as a sovereign in of themselves. In turn the state grants them: Political Equality, Electoral Politics and Social Obligation. The government has not granted these- so, by law- the contract is nullified. Prove, with adequate research- not just rhetoric, that we have all of those things in this country... Then we can talk.

"--eg [International Law] socialist law and the figurehead confederacy of african and banana republics. No we are not. We are the leaders of the international structure." -- FLIPSIDE

Is that really what the United Nations is really comprised of? What about the Geneva Conventions, the War Crimes Tribunal, the World Court? Let me guess, since we are the leaders.. every one is wrong -- except us...." It's not me who is crazy- it's everyone else in the world." Isn't that one of the first signs of insanity?


--"Abject Garbage [Neo-liberalism]. The sentence may not even finish." -FLIPSIDE

I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting. What, neo-liberalism doesn't exist? Then, what about the WTO and IMF structural adjustment programs? What are their functions? Seriously, if you don't think that neo-liberalism exists- then you tell me what global economic trends look like. Give me a history and a complete picture of the world as it currently exists.


"--That is just a lame attempt to excuse illegal immigration. Latin Americans are obligated to improve their own countries. We are not obligated to import them or stop beating them in the international competition." -FLIPSIDE

With all due respect, have your read the history of what our country has done there? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I feel like if you honestly did then you would stop yourself from asserting something so arrogantly minimalist. I guess your right in a sense, the United States has "intervened" there because of capitalism- but this "beating" has been something far more physical. Chile, Argentina, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicarauga, Panama, not to mention Guatemala ... Do I seriously have to keep going? How many democraticly elected governments do we have to overthrow? How many dictators will we support? How much bloodshed does there have to be? We have depended on this region for cheap resources and exploitive labor for quite sometime and have enforced our domination with with billions of dollars and military support, and this is just economic competition?
No.

If there is free movement of capital, free movement of investment and coporations- then why not people? You know why, because it would force the United States to accept responsibility for the serious inequalities that are created and sustained, purposely, by United States elite's lust for stratified capital accumulation.

Call me what you will, seriously, if it makes you feel better. I couldn't care less, I'm not here to compete with you. I'll tell you what I think, you tell me what you think- thats how an intelligent dicussion goes.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
03 Apr 2006
P.S


last time I feed the trolls. sorry.
Thousands March in Boston to No Avail
03 Apr 2006
"you are a "subject" when you are subjected to governmental law."

You are a subject. I am a citizen. How much I am *actually* governed is a matter of discussion.

"I love humanity, the love life in all forms'

--Good for you, O, humanist.

"I believe in democracy- in the literal sense, and equality."

--Democracy in the literal sense was what killed Socrates.

"Constitutionally, [ John Locke]. Consent [...] The government has not granted these- so, by law- the contract is nullified."

--Only for you, and you are in an extreme minority.

"Prove, with adequate research- not just rhetoric, that we have all of those things in this country... Then we can talk."

I can prove that I have them or don't need them. "Political Equality" Don't need it. , "Electoral Politics" I have it. I vote. " Social Obligation" Not part of my contract. Now, "protection against all enemies foreign and domestic," so long as I continue to have that the contract is still in force. YOU, however are frree to wage war against the Government. Have fun.

"Is that really what the United Nations is really comprised of?"

Yes. Socialists and banana republics.

"What about the Geneva Conventions?"

Cite the Geneva Convention the next time you are hurtling in an airplane into a large building. I am sure they will stop what they are doing, land and let you off.

"the War Crimes Tribunal"

--Created by Jews to punish Hitler, Abolished by Jews to protect Sharon. Some legitimacy!

"the World Court?"

Same deal.

"I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting."

--That neo-liberalism is a meaningless term.

"tell me what global economic trends look like."

--More outsourced cheap labor, more imported products, China going capitalist, me investing in the stock market making lots of money, you making lots of paper signs, giving lots of money to charity.

"Give me a history and a complete picture of the world as it currently exists."

--Give me head.

"With all due respect, have you read the history of what our country has done there?"

--I have a Batchelor's Degree in Spanish and Latin American Affairs.

"How many democraticly elected governments do we have to overthrow?"

--All of them if they are socialist. Socialists impede the development of world markets.

"How many dictators will we support?"

--The trend is two per country per century, but we are largely exiting the age of sponsored dictators and entering the phase of sponsored puppet democracies.

"How much bloodshed does there have to be?"

--Enough to wash away any signs of opposition to a world where people buy and sell commmodities on an open market and communicate freely using computers. Or the "alternative minimum bloodshed" of a fast preemptive chain war against the remaining backward nations.

"We have depended on this region for cheap resources and exploitive labor for quite sometime and have enforced our domination with with billions of dollars and military support, and this is just economic competition?"

--Who said economic competition had to be just? That is some strange and subjective moralization on your part. Perhaps you advocate a noncompetitive model.

"If there is free movement of capital, free movement of investment and coporations- then why not people?"

--Fair question. Answer: Abolish the tariff on humans when clinically backward countries eliminate the exportation surplus of incompetent manual laborers.

"it would force the United States to accept responsibility for the serious inequalities that are created and sustained, purposely, by United States elite's lust for stratified capital accumulation"

--I as a United States Citizen and elitist would never support that. Nor do I intend on accumulating capital to appease a Mexican illegal alien or his Tartuffe of a weda social advocate.

" I'm not here to compete with you. I'll tell you what I think, you tell me what you think- thats how an intelligent dicussion goes."

--Intelligent discussions cannot by definition contain terms like "neo-liberal" or other special pleading or bitter accusations. All intelligent discussions must meet an unmeetable goal of being objective, unemotional, and bereft of logical fallacy. You, my dear are not prepared to participate.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
03 Apr 2006
Hali:
You and brad live in fantasy land. To make the statement that a mother and her kids can't get healthcare is patently absurd. Hospitals give health care to any indigent person regardless of their status. You youngsters live in your ivory towers and think that all the world is or can be a Utopia. What you need to do is get out there and work for a living while seeing 40% of your taxes going to those who choose to break our laws. You are simply immature. Brad is immature too.
Ironic idiots make the best idiots
03 Apr 2006
"You are simply immature. Brad is immature too."

You are right we should have been more mature and just called you names.
crossover blues
03 Apr 2006
Typo above. Meant to say I would not stop accumulating capital to appease an illegal alien or his self-appointed spokes-weda.

Since the spokes-weda's position reduces to: Illegals just come here for mo' money, but Americans don't want them here because Americans already have mo' money, we are left with her moral imperative: Mexican illegals deserve your money more than you do, so fork over. To that I just laugh.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
03 Apr 2006
Flip when you have kids and cannot feed them, then talk to me with you mo' money crap. Until then your faux gangsta moral relativism is unconvincing.
You Retard
03 Apr 2006
I would never be unable to feed my own kids. That's just moronic.
More Moral Relativism
03 Apr 2006
Because you are white and born into the largest empire in history.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
03 Apr 2006
Yo Brad, Flipside is prolly not worth your time as he is defiantly not on our side...the two of us may disagree on many things but we are both, I think, fighting for social justice...flipside is not so arguing with him may just egg him on.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
04 Apr 2006
"may just egg him on"

is this back and forth with a couple of true idiots really a productive use of thinking people's time, or imc bandwidth? the right is not about to see the light of reason, certainly not from people posting on imc. most of the readers here have conscious politics- beyond making a few obvious points to defend a view, there's really no need to fight off every one of their ridiculous rants with a thoughtful reply. time is short- they are talking about attacking iran today in london. can you say global warfare? let's focus our limited energies where they will be most useful.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
04 Apr 2006
"they are talking about attacking iran today in london"

How can you attack iran in london?
Attacking Iran in Harvard Sq
04 Apr 2006
attack iran wherever, whenever, however!
"If the "original" @ were any type of revolutionary, the he/she would post his/her real name and email address."
08 Apr 2006
If you knew anything about revolutionaries, you would realize how lame that accusation is. Stealth and secrecy are key to revolution. Only cops want to know who I am.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
09 Apr 2006
@ or @? or @@, this makes so much sense.
Reminds me of Comrade Stalin. A crafty operative. Trotsky. Lenin. No one was who they seemed to be. Now everyone is just named Bush or @.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
09 Apr 2006
EXCUSE ME BUT WHERE IS THE INS. HOW MANY OF THESE MARCHERS HAVE GREEN CARDS AND HOW MANY ARE ILLEGALS? WHAT A COUNTRY. GOING DOWN THE DRAIN DAY BY DAY
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
09 Apr 2006
aooh, but dude...this is like a world community. Nobody has the right to keep people confined to borders
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
09 Apr 2006
Power to the People, oh yeah.. the rally was great!
folks, get in the streets and take america soemplace new... its about time.... and its about timing, too.
We've got no more time to waste.
Peace.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
10 Apr 2006
Guess what Americans there are billions of people who don't want to come to this evil zionist capitalist military industrial police state.They 're right to hate the USA and pray for it's destruction.The united fakes of zionist expansion has murdered millions of people around the world for greed and power.America always supports the worst dictators to oppress their people so the USA can exploit their cheap labor and resources and spread their evil sick vile propaganda around the world that corrupts the minds of all who are weak and ignorant.Fight against America not for it!Don't be proud to be an American be un-American.Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro,Evo Morales,Mahmoud Amadineajad,Hamas,Hezballa,Ward Churchill,etc.these are the people and groups that hate America.They know the evil empire is the #1 terrorist in the world, the United Zionist Fakes of America.Listen to them and learn the painful truth about your gangster government and evil system that brings death and destruction to the world.America is pushing the world to total extinction of all species.So please stop saying how much you love America and how loyal and patriotic you are.Burn the rotten Flag of the evil empire.Don't be a sucker for the USA.Che Guevara said you Americans are in the belly of the beast and you should work to destroy that beast.Viva La Revolucion!! Here's to all those revolutionaries in the third world fighting against the emperialistas and the zionist racists of the USA.I am not proud to be an American I'm ashamed.Green Day is right when they sing'" I don't want to be an American Idiot".Americans are idiots and the world knows it.So join the majority of the world and hate America.It's so nice to know there are billions who agree with me.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
10 Apr 2006
I wish they'd give them their green cards and get this over with.The left is so distracted by this immigrant parade.Every group is trying to get converts to join their little commie org.They've lost sight of the BIG PICTURE.It's so amusing to see these commie groups become so mainstream and liberal.I even saw some commies waving American flags just to fit in.Of course these commies are mainstream and liberals.The radicals have all been chased out years ago. They are so afraid to offend anyone and are so desperate for members they have compromised all their ideals and now are boring and weak liberals pretending to be radical commies.It's funny to hear their tired old slogans that have no substance or power.They are so afraid of the state that they think having legal parades is so revolutionary.They obediently follow all police rules and hate to see young radicals break the law.These old commies have gotten very old and weak and scared of revolution.The 60's is just a faded memory.These old commies are now pawns of the state and are lost in a sea of liberal political correctness.R. I. P. commies.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
10 Apr 2006
IN NO WAY AM I DEGRADING MY LATINO RACE AND OR IMMIGRANTS OF OUR COUNTRY (AMERICA) WHEN I SAY TO THE SO CALLED AMERICAN CITIZENS THAT WHO WILL BE THE ONES TO PAVE YOUR STREETS, WHO WILL BE THE ONES THATS CLEAN YOUR HOTEL SHEETS, WHO WILL BE THE ONES THAT WASH YOUR DISHES AND MEND YOR CLOTHING, WHO WILL BE THE ONES THAT COOK ETHNIC CUISINES, WHO WILL CARRIES YOUR TRASH AND MAKE THE CLOTHES YOU WEAR.........YESSS IT IS US THE IMMIGRANTS OF THIS COUNTRY... ONE DAY WITH OUT US AND YOUR PRECIOUS COUNTRY IS WORTHLESS. BUSH KNOWS THIS SO YOU REALIZE IT ASWELL
Hub of the Universe
10 Apr 2006
Boston was a greater city in 1630 than any capital of Central America is today. We thrived for 400 years without illegal immigrants. We will take our chances now. So leave. Imagine our suffering. It will make you happy. Just go.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
11 Apr 2006
No "illegal immigrants" except the pilgrims and the rest of those from Europe that is....
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
11 Apr 2006
how predictable. I opposed the Iraq War like most real conservatives. George "Condi Will Tell Me What To Do" Bush is not a consevative. ("No Child Left Behind'? How dreary; how egalitarian). Saddam served a useful purpose as a buffer for US interests against Iran. Reagan saw this. He was not the idiot the simple-minded powerless Liberals thought. Unfortunately the neo-cons, Wall St Journal, American Jewish Committee crowd like "Scooter" Libby (nee Leibowitz) took over.

See you at the Country Club, Buffy.
Immigrants or Criminal Aliens
11 Apr 2006
I wonder how many in the demonstration were actually immigrants and how many were illegal alien criminals.
I wonder how many respondants above are FLIPSIDE pretending to be someone else?
12 Apr 2006
Imagine, you're a white guy who thinks himself important and you spend all of your time visiting a website where you are unwanted, posting your blithering idiocy in reply to every article, pretending to be someone else to cover your tracks. FLIPSIDE's life sounds like the life of an absolute loser.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
13 Apr 2006
@re u a black guy pretending to be a white guy. would i like u if u wur?
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
14 Apr 2006
Actually I'm Spanish. My grandparents came from Madrid.
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
15 Apr 2006
does the blue line go to Madrid?
Re: Thousands March in Boston for Immigrant Rights
27 Apr 2006
To know that hell await sinners and keep silent on the matter would be injustice to mankind.Righteousness through faith in JESUS CHRIST.(romans-3-21-26).23 said for all have sinned and fall short of glory of God."YOU AND I" are sinners,24 said and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by CHRIST JESUS."YOU AND I" are justified when we believe and have faith in CHRIST.THE wages of sin is death,but the gift of God is eternal life in CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.

The gift is for"YOU AND I".Read what the gift is all about.(Luke-23-39-43),the other criminal rebuked him Don't you fear God he said since you are under the same setence?. We are punished justly.for we are getting what our deeds deserve,but the man JESUS CHRIST done nothing wrong.Then the criminal said,JESUS, remember me when you come into your kingdom.JESUS CHRIST answered him I tell you the truth,today you will be with me in paradise. all have sinned YOU AND I" are sinners We need JESUS just like this criminal, only his faith in JESUS CHRIST save and take him to paradise.think of it.satan certainly has stratagey,and it is multifaceted,multipronged,and bent on miltiplication. "Dening JESUS CHRIST AS THE SON OF GOD AND THE ONLY WAY TO HOLY GOD OF ISRAEL John-14-6".one satan-touched life quickly touches another! just consider the many different ways in which he attacks the human race and in this way attacks the Lord.satan inspires counterfeit religions and cults,confusing multitudes about the truth.The counterfeit and cults know that JESUS CHRIST IS THE SON OF GOD,the saviour and they keep silent on the matter they are satan's inspires religions.eternal punishment is not a pleasant subject for discussion, but you must know it.hell the destiny of all sinners who reject to gospel of CHRIST JESUS.Math-25-41-46.Rev-20-13-15,21-8.repent to day.

DEAR FRIEND,

The ancient world had many different devices for determining the future,known as divination,but not in the entire gamut of greek and latin literature,even though they used the words prophet and prophecy,can we find any real specific prophecy of a saviour to arrive in human race....Mohammedanism cannot point to any prophecies of the coming of Mohammed uttered hundreds of year before his birth.neither can the founders of any satan's inspires religions or cults in the world rightly identify any ancient text specifically foretelling their FOUNDERS appearance.

Yet in case of LOVER,SAVIOUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, He fulfilled over three hundred prophecies spoken by dfferent prophet voices over five hundred years,including twenty-nine major prophecies fulfilled in a single day-the day He died.the physical resurrection from the died of JESUS CHRIST is the cornerstone of christianity. but what is the evidence thet it really happened? JESUS CHRISTsaid here I am! I stand at the door of your heart and knock.If anyone hears my voice and opend the door I will come in and eat with him and he with me.PLS,let Him.Rev-3-20.JESUS CHRIST said,whoever believes in me is not condemned,but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.John-3-18 ,

Do you know that this world is not your home? the truth is one day "YOU AND I" will certainly leave this world it could be by death.for it is appointed to man to die once,and after that comes judgement,Heb-9-27.it could also be by the second coming of JESUS CHRIST which will precede the end of this world.2pet-3-10.since you know that surely,one day you will leave this world the question is where are you heading? Do not say "I don't know" The word of God clearly teaches that God has prepared two inevitable destination to which every one whether rich or poor,old or young,black or white must choose to go.it is either you go to hell or heaven.Luke-16:19:26. sinners who reject JESUS CHRIST will suffer eternally-Rev-21:8,Jn-3:18.think of it.

Blessed are those who wash their robes with the blood of JESUS CHRIST,that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates in to the city of heaven.without holiness you cannot see GOD.outside are dogs,those who reject CHRIST in there life time .they are dogs,those who practice magic arts,the sexually immoral,the murderers,the idolaters,and everyone who love and practices falsehood (false religions and cults) Rev-22-14-15.only the redeemed will walk in heaven,and the ransomed of the LORD will enter Zion with singing everlasting joy will crown their heads.Isa-35-8-10. Holy Bible Gen-1-26-27,then GOD said let us make man in our image,in our likeness and let them rule over the fish of sea and birds of air,over the livstock,over all the earth,and over all the creatures that move along the groud.So God created man in his own image in the image of God he created him male and female he created them.

Read why JESUS CHRIST call those who reject Him dogs, Muhammad Quran part 18-12,Allah created man from a quintessence of clay.13-14, said then we placed him a drop of sparm in a place of rest firmly.(surat part 14-4) Allah created man from a sparm drop. the best to create.this tell you Allah of quran has no son (surat part 18-91-92)and GOD of holy Bible he has Son JESUS CHRIST.John-3-16.

The world mojor faiths.agree the in times of deep uncertainty and change,a great spiritual teacher may be expected.(what bible says about it the day is unknown matt-24-36-42.) buddhist refer to the coming of Lord maitreya,hindus refer to the kalki avatar,and christians to second coming of JESUS CHRIST.muslims SURAT PART-6-159.the day of judgment JESUS CHRIST will be a witness aganst them who reject him in the day of resurrection.many cults know this.JESUS CHRIST said there is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my word,that very word which I CHRIST, spoke will condemn him at the last day.John-12-48.

Many will be disappointed BY.satan's inspires religions.mohammad's Allah, satan right hand helpers working to take people to hell in the adulterated Quran part 21 -13 Allah said he will fill hell with man and demons.part 26-9 mohammad tell his disciple they don't know what will happen to them after death.does it means Allah can not save them ?or no plan for salvation of there soul?.JESUS CHRIST said,he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God.luke-12-9

Muhammad come to decieve the world from the truth the gospel of JESUS CHRIST he is not the conforter JESUS CHRIST promises. satan decieve muslims that muhammad was the conforter promise by CHRIST.Jn-14-15 JESUS CHRIST promise HOLY SPIRIT the Spirit of truth not a sinner.JESUS CHRIST commanded one man one wife. but muhammad's allah told him to have wives,(surat part 22-50) he paid their dowers,and those whom thy right hand possesses out of captives of war whom allah has assigned to thee.JESUS CHRIST COME TO SET US FREE from the captive of satan and sin. JESUS make his own war with sin and satan on the cross to save "YOU AND I "to have eternal life with Him.this plece make fun of muhammad and his allah who tell him to go on sinning by having many wives.this allah tell muslim to have up to four wives for one man,a sin in the eyes of Holy God and His Son Jesus Christ.
the same sinful allah promise to reword his follower with beautiful,big,and lustrous eye woman he made the virgen-pure and undefiled,full of love in the muslim heaven.(surat part 27-14-40.) surat part-27-24,the reword for the deeds of the past life.Allah made virgin-pure and undefild.full of love,equal in age a goodly numbers of old and goodly nubers from those of later time.beautiful and big lustrous eyes,allah in this heaven is woman lovers.why JESUS CHRIST call those who reject Him dogs, Allah to reword his people with woman only.no eternal life. but one man many woman.this allah is satan's right hand helper.Bible the word of Holy God and His Son Jesus Christ said, each man his wife and woman her own husbond.1cor-7-2,prov-6-16-20.only dogs cannot do it like having as many as. think of it.

The same muhammad's allah teld them to wash sin with water and sand (surat part 6-6) wash your faces,hand,arms;elbows,rub your heads with water ceremonial impurity,bath your whole body.but if you are ill,or on a junrney,or one of you cometh from the privy,or you have been in contact with woman" sexually immoralty a sin,"and you find no water,then take for yourselves clean sand or earth,and rub there with your faces and hands,allah doth not wish to place you in a difficlty,but to make you clean,and to complete his favour to you,that you may be grateful. the speaker here is the most foolish allah that ever help satan to deceive the world.to wash sin with water is of satan not of HOLY GOD.before CHRIST come it was blood of goats and bulls to take away sin.Heb-10-1-17,JESUS CHRIST blood washes us to take from us all sin.1-john-1-7,heb-9-26,heb-7-26.CHRIST REDEEMED SINNERS THROUGH HIS BLOOD.Gal-5-19-21.you must confess your sin before GOD can forgive your sins.1-john-1-9,luk-15-18.

JESUS CHRIST SAID I HAVE COME THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE LIFE AND THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE IT MORE ABUNDANTLY john-10-10.WHAN SHALL WE OBTAIN THIS PROMISED IMMORTALITY? the inspired apostle answers,we Shall not all die,but we shall all be changed in a moment.in the twinkling of an eye,at the last Trumpet,for the trumpet shall sound and the dead in Christ shall raised incorrupible.and we shall be Change for this corruptible must put on incorruptible,and this mortal must put on immortality.than Shall be brought to pass the saying that is written.death is swallowed up in victory.o death were is Thy siting o grave where is thy victory.1-cor-15-51-55.Countless numbers of people worship under the illusion that the know what they are worshiping.in reality,they don't.God is spirit,and his worshiper must worship in spirit and in truth.JOHN-4-21-24.Jesus tell the woman the samaritans worship what they do not know.we jews worship what we do know,for salavation is from the jews.

Muhammad's allah dening resurrection JESUS CHRIST.promise.surat part 6-34-38,says if you obey a man like yourselves,behold,it is certain you will be lost.does he promise that when you die and become dust and bones you shall be brought fouth again? far,very far is that which you are promised? there is nothing but our life in this world.we shall die and we live but we shall never be raised up again !.he is only a man who invents a lie against allah,but we are not the ones to believe in him.
THE SPEAKER HERE IS ONE OF THE USELESS allah that help satan to decieve the world. that JESUS CHRIST can not keep to His promise of raising the dead at the last day.those in graves will hear JESUS CHRIST voice and come out.Jn-4-24-47.
surat part 6-sention-16 one of the wicked allah tell his followes to hate jews and christian because allah guideth not a peopel unjest.THE SPEAKER IS ONE OF THE allah that help satan they hate christians the light of the world because this allah love darkness morethan light.

The counterfeit religions are many i cannot call all their names. they knows JESUS will come back the second to judge the world.Buddhist know they keep silent they are working for satan to decieve the world.Hindus know they keep silent working for satan to decieve mankind a sin.Muslims know they keep silent injustice to mankind.there silent made them look like satan's inspires counterfeit religions and cults,confusing multitudes about the truth JESUS CHRIST.2-cor-6-4-10. practices falsehood muhammad's allah of quran;surat- part 6-157.that they said (in boest) we killed JESUS CHRIST the son of mary the messenger of Allah,but they killed Him not,nor crucified Him.only a likeness of that shown to them.an those who differ there are full of doubts,with no certain knowledge.but only conjecture to follow,for of a surety they killed him not.(158 )Allah raised him up unto himself.(159)day of judgment He will be a witness aganst them. No 1,allah "the speaker is satan in one of the allah's deceiving voice."IT IS appointed unto men once to die,after that judgment follow.if Jesus Christ make you free,you are free indeed.John-8-32-36

Christianity is one institution besieging other institutions,one arsenal of ideas seeking to outgun other arsenals of ideas.JESUS CHRIST militant love is life attacking death,light coming against darkness,truth against lies.example islam militant may call for the death of the "infidel" and may issue death warrants against its enemies,useing bombs as a love gift, but JESUS CHRIST of Nazareth will not allow his followers to call down the fire on the enemies of the gospel or use bombs.Luk-9-55-56.JESUS CHRIST and his militant love will minister healing,deliverance and hope."read Rom-10-13 by join to extend GOD's kingdom".pray for us.for more information,call.00228-914-40-75.or reply by this e-mail. be bless in the LORD. Aman.

Militant love of JESUS CHRIST wins just look at how paul waged his war Paul in Ephesus,Riot in Ephesus.read Acts-19-1-41.shouting "Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!.like one of satan's inspires religions Riot in the world to day.

JESUS CHRIST shows that militant love does not inflict suffering on others, but is willing to receive it on itself fo the sake of others.militant love of CHRIST does not nail its enemies to the cross,but goes to the cross on behalf of the enemy.
As militant of CHRIST we commend ourselves in every way in great endurance,in trouble,hardship and distresses,in beatings,imprisonments and riots,in hard work,sleepless nights and in hunger,in the Holy Spirit and in sincere,bad report and good report geuuine,yet regarded as impostors,known yet regarded as unknown,dying,and yet we live on beaten and yet not killed sorrowful,yet rejoicing,poor,yet making rich having nothing,and yet possessing everything

He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit to the churches.Have you ever asked Jesus to come in to you life?or you are not sure you are save, if your answer is no.Pray this prayer with sincerity and confidence.LORD JESUS,I come to you today.I am a sinner,I can NOT help myself,forgive me my sins.cleanse me with your blood,deliver me From sin and satan,to serve the living GOD.today,LORD I accept you as my LORD, And my personal saviour.thank you JESUS,for saving me.

My preaching is not with wise and persuasive words,but a demonstration of the spirit power.so that Your faith might not rest on man's wisdom but on God power.JESUS CHRIST pray for all belivers,He Said my prayer is not for them alone.I pray also for those who will belive in me through their Message.john-16-20

BE BLESS IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST AMAN !!!!.

MISSIONARY OKECHUKUW ALILI. (JESUS CHRIST IS LORD.)

The invitation of mercy.JESUS CHRIST said,come unto me all you that labor and heavy laden and I will give you rest.Matt-11-28.think of it.regardless of indifference and cantempt,Jesus had steadfastly pursued his ministry of love.Jesus christ subjected to privation and reproch he had lived to scatter blessing in his path to plead with men,YOU AND I to accept the gift of life.

The loss of even one soul is a calamity in comparison with which the gain of a world sink into insignificance.Jesus christ saw the record of sin traced in human misery,in tears and blood,his heart was moved with infinity pity for the afflicted and suffering oncs of earth.Jesus christ yearned to relieve all. YOU AND I.

Jesus chrisrt, looking down to the last generation,saw the world enclosed in a deception similar to that which caused the distruction of Jerusalem.SODOM AND GUMORRAH the great sin of the jew was their rejection of Jesus christ.millions in bondage of sin,slaves of satan Guy Marriage in the world to day ,doomed to suffer the second death.world refuse to listen to the word of truth.THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.as you are reading this message don't over look it, God know I have send it to you. to tell you of God's love for you, he want you to live ETERNITY with JESUS CHRIST.