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News ::
How to break a Conservative Libertarian masquerading as a Liberal (english)
07 May 2003
Modified: 09 May 2003
"We should provide aid and assistance to those who are our friends and simply ignore those who are not. After all if they can afford to insult us it must be because they don't need us. Let them strike out on their own. If they survive fine, if they become extinct fine."
Please be aware that there are those who seek to infiltrate Indymedia to spread a Conservative, Isolationist agenda, as you can well see from the conversation below (from DC Indymedia). I don't think there is anything we can do other than to remove their masks and make them admit their agenda -- let them be judged by their true ideals and not the ones they hide behind to gain sympathy.

============================
Something for the pro-war's to be proud of
by Liberty, anythingtohere (at) yahoo.com

from BBC website

Iraq is thought to be having a cholera outbreak due to contaminated water and poor living conditions following the war....also increase in digestive problems....

jingo all the way, hurrah what ho...all hail US and UK...

============================
I smell a Conservative Isolationist
by pro-human

Hmm, the name of the poster is Liberty - as in Libertarian?

Libertarians persue a policy of "America First" (a.k.a. "Everyone and Everything else Last") which is best descrived as live and let die. Their view is that America has no business trying to help anyone accept Americans, the rest of the world is on its own.

Isn't that right Liberty?

============================
Please
by Jason

The "concern" on the pro-war side for the welfare of the Iraqi people is as fake as their "patriotism". Where was the outrage from these people during the 80's when Rummy was shaking hands with the "Butcher of Baghdad"? There was none because no right-wing voices were telling them to care.

If you're so outraged at France for doing business with Saddam, where is the outrage over Dick Cheney doing business with him from 1998-2000? There is none. In fact, you make excuses for it.

It's just hilarious that the same people who railed against Clinton for being a draft-dodger, say nothing about W. doing the same thing. In fact, they call him a hero.

============================
Libertarians masquerading as Liberals
by pro-human

Your criticisms are hollow because you offer no alternative. Why is that? Because you honestly don't care about anything other than a Conservative Isolationist agenda.

So why don't we skip ahead -- how would you go about removing the world-renounced dictatorship of North Korea? Do you think your method will be free of any harmful secondary affects like cholera?

You see, I want a world in which dictatorships aren't free to hide within the graces of the UN -- where China can't occupy Tibet, Israel can't occupy Palestine, and Syria can't occupy Lebanon. But I'm not naive enough to believe that there is a way to achieve these things without negative consequences.

I also believe believe that it is in America's best interest (as well as our moral obligation) to do more than bitch and moan -- and that Isolationists such as yourself are the scourge of the modern world.

All you want to know is how much will it cost and why you should have to pay for it.

============================
note for pro-human
by sightseer56

Yes, the primary principle is America First. If not us supporting ourself, who? That dosen't mean everyone else has to be a distant last, but they should definitely be second to our own national interest. Please don't start that tattered crap that if we just all joined hands and sang "We are the World" everything would be great. Unfortunately there are those in the world that will present a threat to us and/or to international order. They musy be eliminated. At least that was we can hope to have a sembelance of peace. We should provide aid and assistance to those who are our friends and simply ignore those who are not. After all if they can afford to insult us it must be because they don't need us. Let them strike out on their own. If they survive fine, if they become extinct fine. As far as the maniac leadership, that problem could be handled by selective removal of the problem short of war. We certainly have the capability, let's use it.

In the real world of both people and nations, you do not turn the other cheek when slapped. You pick up a club and beat the other guys brains out. Threat eliminated!

Again, that's real world and not focus group nonsense.

============================
Libertarians come crawling out...
by pro-human

I knew it!!!

What you don't seem to understand is that your view is not the view put forth by Indymedia, which seeks to unite people worldwide to help people worldwide -- there is no room for an America First attitude.

Get it?!!
See also:
http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=68365&group=webcast
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Comments

Whoever said America first? (english)
08 May 2003
I'm sorry, but I noticed that "Liberty" never said anything about america first, that was a strawman thrown out by his/her critic. Why do different sides of a debate always feel the need to make an argument more extreme than it needs to be?
Libertarians can also be humanists if you never understood that fine line. As a libertarian I can proudly say I don't support Bush, I didn't support the war...but I do support freedom. Communism necessarily subverts an individual to a smaller part of the larger group, "the government." It seems that many people here do not trust the government, so why do you trust governments to ever keep their word. Most solutions I see coming from the radical left involve more state control, but why would you ever trust a government after the long history of abuses of power? Is it not possible to let America be what it was founded to be, a bastion of freedom (I'll be the first to admit we're far from that goal). But, given that communist ideals are in the minority in this country, you as the minority would be forcing your ideas on any citizen in this country who merely wanted to live their life as they see fit. My girlfriend is from China, and besides what she loves about her country culturally, I rarely hear anything good about their government...is this perhaps because so many people realize its better to live in America than any "communist paradise". Marxism is based on a theory of an ideal individual, one without self, completely altruistic. Unfortunately for most of you, people live for their own sake.
what about anarchists (english)
09 May 2003
but what about anarchism, many of us are anarchists you fair avoid using the strawman agruement yourself, when you group us all as red fascists.
sorry about the group classification (english)
09 May 2003
I truly am sorry if you interpreted my posting as grouping you with the red fascists. I did say "most" arguments on this board are for greater state control. If you're an anarchist that classifies you as a totally different group...and one which I find alot more in common with than red fascists. I realize many will argue that "true" communism has never existed, but that is a product of its inevitable decay into a fascist state. Peace and freedom be with you.