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Commentary :: Human Rights
Despite all Rhetoric - Israel still has No "Right" to Exist!!!
12 Jan 2004
In spite of all the rhetoric by Israel and by the wealthy "Pro Israel" American lobby - Israel still has No intrinsic "Right" to Exist!
Please Note: I posted this article 3 times in the last week on the New York City (NYC IMC) IndyMedia site and 3 times its disappeared completely,not found anywhere in Hidden Files or anywhere else on their site! What does this say about the "Political Allegiances" not to mention the Democracy of NYC Indy-Media?)

Despite all Rhetoric - Israel still has No "Right" to Exist!!!

The present State of Israel was set up in 1948 by European bureaucrats in a misguided and very short sighted attempt to appease and somehow compensate European Jews or Hitler's atrocities.

Rather than return these Jews to the cities and villages they were disposessed from by the Nazis,and compensate them for their losses - European Governments had a better idea - lets just ship them all off to Palestine where we'll "expropiate" the land from the indigenous Palestinians and call it the new "Jewish Homeland"!
The European politicians liked it and so apparently did the Jews but the only hitch in the scheme was that the native Palestinians,who weren't allowed to have any say in the plan, didn't like having their "Homeland" expropiated by unilateral and heavy-handed European "Decree".

Israeli politicians declare that Israel is a "Jewish State" and that its "right to exist" in Palestine is "legitimized" by the magical "Hocus Pocus of the Old Testament bible.In that case Christians and especially the world's 600 million Catholics also have a right to create "Homelands" in Palestine (entire State of Israel) as it is the land and birthplace of Jesus. (Incidentially Jesus was a Semetic ARAB, just like like the founders of Judaism were!!!!)

How well does International Law recognize the "Old Testament" or Bethlehem as the "birthplace of Jesus" as being a "legitimate claim" by any "religious group" on the "ownership" of the land of Palestine?

In North America the Native Indians in Canada and the U.S. have brought to court their legitimate "Land Claims" and they have won their cases in court on the basis that "they were here first"! The Palestinians can make the same legitimate claim - they were in Palestine and all the areas now claimed by Israel tens of thousands of years before there was a Jewish or Christian or Muslim religion.The claim of the Israeli Govt. to the land of Palestine by any standards of law is illegitimate.

Not only that but the Israeli govt. is bringing in "Caucasian" Jews from Russia;Europe and North America to settle on Palestinian land while at the same time they're forcing the indigenous "Semetic" Palestinians out and are bulldozing their homes!

Theres an easy solution to the Israel-Palestinian debate to determine who really "historically" belongs there.Lets have all the people of Israel and the West Bank etc. have a simple "blood test".From this it can easily be determined by "DNA" analysis who are the pure blooded (Semetic Arab) natives who are historically "indigenous" to that desert region and who are not!


"It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief,if I may so express it,that mental lying has produced in Society.When a man has so corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe,he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime!"
- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

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Re: Despite all Rhetoric - Israel still has No "Right" to Exist!!!
12 Jan 2004
Does the U.S. have a "right" to exist?

Does Canada?

Does Syria?

All silly questions. They do exist, whether they have a right or not. And, by the way, only two of these countries were created by force, slaughter and ethnic cleansing.

I'll give you a hint: you live in one of them.

So unless you're willing to take away the U.S's "right to exist" - you shouldn't be talking about other countries.

And this is a crazy article anyway. Jesus was not an Arab. Arabs had not left the Arabian peninsula until the late 7th century - over 700 years after the death of Jesus. Jesus was a semitic Hebrew, like almost all people in the region, aside from the colonial Romans.
Re: Despite all Rhetoric - Israel still has No "Right" to Exist!!!
12 Jan 2004
Canada and the USA were settled by Europeans by way of a natural exploration and migration.Native (Indian)Amercans also previously settled North and South America as a part of their own natural explorations and migrations.

Israel on the other hand was "created" by a Bureaucratic Decree of the British Govt.

Hebrew and Judaism denote a "religion" only! There is no such thing as a "Jewish" or "Hebrew" RACE of people - ask any Phd.Physical Anthropologist!

The Semites (Semetic peoples) of the Middle East existed tens of thousands of years before there ever was an Old Testament Bible or a "mono-theistic" religion like Judaism!
America has No Right to exist
12 Jan 2004
Of course you understand that you are arguing that the United States of America has "No Right" to exist.

So when do you think we will all pack our bags and leave the North American continent for the Native Americans to resettle?

Will you be leading the exodus?
Re: Despite all Rhetoric - Israel still has No "Right" to Exist!!!
13 Jan 2004
Actually, if you ask a physical anthropologist, they'll tell you there's no such thing as race period. It's a social construction, a way of categorizing human beings that is used to justify a system of oppression based on physical appearance or ethnic descent. As for the blood test for a DNA analysis, that's been done. It turns out that Jews and Palestinians have an identical genetic heritage. A lot of people in the Jewish right-wing were not too happy to hear about that and tried to get the results suppressed. "Jew" and "Palestinian" are not even dichotomous categories--before the advent of Zionism, there was a community of Palestinian/Arab Jews living happily alongside Christian and Muslim Palestinians. Indeed, until the advent of European colonialism in the Middle East, Jews were treated far better in the Arab world than they ever were in Europe. Read a little medieval history.

I don't think any state has any particular basis to exist. While the Zionist movement was a colonialist one, I think it is worth remembering that, while mired in ignorance and racism, it was also a reaction to the persecutions Jews had suffered in Europe for centuries and was meant to be a liberation movement. In many ways, it's a tragedy on both sides. Now that they have been living there for well over fifty years, Jews have made Israel/Palestine their homeland--just as much as it remains the homeland of Palestinians. There is no neat formula to achieve justice. It will take a lot of hard work so that the two peoples can find a way live beside each other, come to grips with what really happened historically, and achieve reconciliation. As for whether this takes the form of a one-state or a two-state solution, I don't really give a damn.
Re: Despite all Rhetoric - Israel still has No "Right" to Exist!!!
13 Jan 2004
A Physical Anthropologist will tell you there is an actual comparitive difference,for instance,in the skeletons of Caucasians and Negroes! These physical differneces are scientifically observeable and factual and are not some bigoted "plot" as you ignorantly infer!

European and American "Caucasian" Jews don't have the same DNA as the indigenous Palestinains! As I remember Sammy Davis Jr. was a Jew and his DNA probably wouldn't match either that of European (Caucasian) Jews or that of indigenous Palestinians!
Tens of thousands of years before there ever was any "Mono-Theistic" religons like Judaism or Islam,the "Semetic" peoples of the Middle East (like the indigenous Palestinians) shared a common heritage and gene pool and weren't divided over narrow minded,religious egotism!

Judaism like Christianity and Islam are based entirely on poorly constructed "Myth"! None of these relgions have anything special or superior or redeeming to offer to the world or humanity! If anything they've been a constant source and promoter of division,bloodshed,warfare and human misery!

The shallow premise that Israel is "Relgious Homeland" exclusively for Jews, just clearly shows the selfish egotism and vain-glorious elitism that permeates and defines that myopic and self-serving religion!
Re: Despite all Rhetoric - Israel still has No "Right" to Exist!!!
13 Jan 2004
k. hawley, I don't know where you are getting you information, but you are very much behind the times:

Patterns of Human Diversity, within and among Continents, Inferred from Biallelic DNA Polymorphisms

Chiara Romualdi
David Balding
Ivane S. Nasidze
Gregory Risch
Myles Robichau
Stephen T. Sherry
Mark Stoneking
Mark A. Batzer
Guido Barbujani

Previous studies have reported that about 85% of human diversity at Short Tandem Repeat (STR) and Restriction Fragment Length Polymorphism (RFLP) autosomal loci is due to differences between individuals of the same population, whereas differences among continental groups account for only 10% of the overall genetic variance. These findings conflict with popular notions of distinct and relatively homogeneous human races, and may also call into question the apparent usefulness of ethnic classification in, for example, medical diagnostics.

Here, we present new data on 21 Alu insertions in 32 populations. We analyze these data along with three other large, globally dispersed data sets consisting of apparently neutral biallelic nuclear markers, as well as with a β-globin data set possibly subject to selection. We confirm the previous results for the autosomal data, and find a higher diversity among continents for Y-chromosome loci.

We also extend the analyses to address two questions: (1) whether differences between continental groups, although small, are nevertheless large enough to confidently assign individuals to their continent on the basis of their genotypes; (2) whether the observed genotypes naturally cluster into continental or population groups when the sample source location is ignored.

Using a range of statistical methods, we show that classification errors are at best around 30% for autosomal biallelic polymorphisms and 27% for the Y chromosome. Two data sets suggest the existence of three and four major groups of genotypes worldwide, respectively, and the two groupings are inconsistent. These results suggest that, at random biallelic loci, THERE IS LITTLE EVIDENCE, IF ANYOF A CLEAR SUBDIVISION OF HUMANS INTO BIOLOGICALLY DEFINED GROUPS.

Genome Research, 2002 April; 12 (4): 602–612
DOI: 10.1101/gr.214902
Re: Despite all Rhetoric - Israel still has No "Right" to Exist!!!
14 Jan 2004
Biological (bio-chemistry) differences amongst humans are negligible.Physical differences based on long term habitation (natural selection) in different temperate zones is a definitive indicator of human geographical-regional origins!

All of this of course is not the point of the argument - and the above postings re: Racial origins are nothing more than diversionary sophistry! Stated again Israel still has No intrinsic "Right" to Exist! This hasn't been rebutted!
Your ignorance of genetics and biology is grossly apparent
14 Jan 2004
The "physical" difference you speak of, if they indeed existed, would have shown up as specific sequences of DNA. But as this research indicates, as well as MANY, MANY others, the notion you are saying is true in nothing more than a bunch of unsubstantiated bullshit.

To your second point, as others have stated, we don't have a right to exist either. We butchered our way across the contitent and put the indigenous populations in refugee camps called Reservations.

Assuming you want to be true to your morals, how do you reconcile your own part in the continued occupation of the North American continent?
Re: Despite all Rhetoric - Israel still has No "Right" to Exist!!!
14 Jan 2004
Look, I was an anthropology major as an undergrad. I studied this stuff. Back in the nineteenth century, they took the idea of race seriously, using it to justify European imperialism. In the twentieth century, they through the idea out the window. Yes, there are physical differences between different human populations. But most of those differences are quite superficial. The concept of "race" invests these small differences with fare more significance than they have to divide the human population up as an exucse for creating systems of oppression.

Sorry, most Jews and Palestinians do have an identical genetic heritage. But, yes, a black convert like Sammy David, Jr. wouldn't. Judaism is a religion. It is also an ethnicity. Something can be both. Every religion has its own culture and people generally adopt the religion of their parents. Jews have generally not proseltyzed, so they have built a community where religion and ethnicity overlap. It would appear that most European Jews are genuinely descendants of the people driven out of their by the Romans and have the same ancestors as Palestinians. Palestinians have in the meantime adopted the Arabic language and culture.

It doesn't really matter in some ways though. The real question is how do we achieve peace and justice in Israel/Palestine. I agree Israel has no inherent right to exist. It was, like the United States, founded on colonialism. But moving from this to dogmatically insist that Israel shouldn't exist does not help us achieve peace and justice. White Americans (and black Americans and Asian Americans and etc.) have made this country our homeland--which does not mean that we do not owe reparations to Native Americans. Similarly, Jews have a right to live in what they have made their own homeland after fifty years--but they do have to deal with the historical fact that in so doing, they dispossessed the Palestinians and owe them reparations. There is no neat answer to this mess.

Your views on religion are appallingly ignorant. Might I suggest reading _A History of God_ by Karen Armstrong? She acknowledges that religion has been misused, that the concept of monotheism has taken on problematic forms--especially in the modern era where mythology tends to be interpreted literally instead of symbolically, as it often was during the medieval era. (Yes, really.) But there is a core of insight in it too, rooted in compassion and, particularly in Islam, a desire for social justice. Look at liberation theology, the civil rights movement, etc. Religion can be a positive force. We need to figure out how to cultivate the best in religion, help these traditions to continue to grow, while squarely addressing the backwards elements. Dogmatically dismissing all religion is simply un-nuanced, just like your stand on Israel.
Re: Despite all Rhetoric - Israel still has No "Right" to Exist!!!
16 Jan 2004
There are Black,Ethiopian Jews - so whats the shared "Ethnicity" between them and Russian Jews...except maybe the Bible Babble of the Old Testament?
Israel wasn't founded on "Colonialism" it was founded on a "Bureaucratic Decree" by the British Govt.,with complete indifference to what the impact of creating a self serving "Jewish Homeland" in Palestine would have on the indigenous Palestinian population! (North and South America were originally settled by Europeans as part of their natural explorations and migrations much the same way as so-called "Native" Americans settled in the Americas after their natural explorations and migrations from Asia!)
Amongst the pervasive EVIL of organized religion htere is a little good? Well its said the Monster known as Adolph Hitler actually like dogs and little children.So should Hitler be revised and presented as a role model for his "good qualities"? There is a core of insight and much compassion too in the book "Lord of the Rings" and also in the various "Star Trek" books/movies! So why not "Worship" and build Temples to a religion of "Lord of the Rings" or "Star Trek"? Makes about as much sense as Christianity;Islam or Judaism! (*Actually with all the psycho "Trekkies" out there,Star Trek probably does now constitute an organized "Religion"!)

Why do we have to "cultivate the best in religion"? For whose sake? For the greedy religious Heirarchy? The elite "Power Mongers" like priests,mullahs,rabbis etc. who use Religion as a weapon to control people? Fuck Organized Religion!
Israel is against the Torah
15 Feb 2004
Jesus was Aramaic, NOT Hebrew. The Heebs killed him, and never were true to any of the prophets. Aramaic is just a shorter version of Arabic, same letters but less without dots emphasizing the vowels. Indeed Jesus was semetic, but not Hebrew. You can't even quote the bible bc none of them are the original text. Constatine of the Eastern Roman empire changed the whole thing making him more godlike and catering to the peoples will. It worked and Jesus suddenly became God himself. Just stop with the incoherant babeling claiming Jesus was a hebrew. He was ARAMAIC, deal with it. God bless and we should all come together. What Jesus was makes no difference, everyone misinterprets his points. We're all one and should come together. Agrue all ya want, you're misinterpreting all of the regilious texts. Thank you.