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News :: Politics
DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
14 Dec 2005
Modified: 09:45:18 AM
MSNBC has obtained a 400 page document detailing efforts by the Pentagon to monitor anti-war activities.

The abbreviated list includes a reference to a December 8, 2004 protest listed on the IAC website. This protest was labeled a threat.
This story is breaking right now.

MSNBC has obtained a 400 page document detailing efforts by the Pentagon to monitor anti-war activities.

The abbreviated list includes a reference to a December 8, 2004 protest listed on the IAC website. This protest was labeled a threat.

from MSNBC:

"Two years ago, the Defense Department directed a little known agency, Counterintelligence Field Activity, or CIFA, to establish and “maintain a domestic law enforcement database that includes information related to potential terrorist threats directed against the Department of Defense.” Then-Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz also established a new reporting mechanism known as a TALON or Threat and Local Observation Notice report. TALONs now provide “non-validated domestic threat information” from military units throughout the United States that are collected and retained in a CIFA database. The reports include details on potential surveillance of military bases, stolen vehicles, bomb threats and planned anti-war protests. In the program’s first year, the agency received more than 5,000 TALON reports. The database obtained by NBC News is generated by Counterintelligence Field Activity. "

"CIFA is becoming the superpower of data mining within the U.S. national security community. Its “operational and analytical records” include “reports of investigation, collection reports, statements of individuals, affidavits, correspondence, and other documentation pertaining to investigative or analytical efforts” by the DOD and other U.S. government agencies to identify terrorist and other threats. Since March 2004, CIFA has awarded at least $33 million in contracts to corporate giants Lockheed Martin, Unisys Corporation, Computer Sciences Corporation and Northrop Grumman to develop databases that comb through classified and unclassified government data, commercial information and Internet chatter to help sniff out terrorists, saboteurs and spies. "

THESE CORPORATIONS ARE SPYING ON US!

Lockheed Martin IMS Office of ECS & Business CNDCT
(617) 357-7123
270 Congress St
Boston, MA 02210

Unisys Corp
(617) 625-0120
5 Middlesex Ave # 2
Somerville, MA 02145

Computer Science Corporation
(617) 374-2700
5 Cambridge Ctr
Cambridge, MA 02142

Northrop Grumman Corp
(781) 830-9690
755 Dedham St
Canton, MA 02021
See also:
http://web.morons.org/article.jsp?sectionid=1&id=6666
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10454316/

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Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
14 Dec 2005
Old news.
You have nothing to worry about if you are not breaking the law. Makes sense to keep track of those that don't think clearly, cause problems or associate with those that cause problems.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
14 Dec 2005
This may also be bogus news created as a form of psychy opps to disuade anti war protest. What a better way to silence dissent then by claiming to have "found" documentation of surreptitious government agencies spying on protestors. And now IM is helping to spread this propaganda.

Whether it is ture or not makes no difference. I actually aggree with Vet, except for different reasons. If they are breaking the law and spying on innocent people, they cannot do anything with the info. Therefore, the best thing to do is to ignor the psych-opps propaganda and keep on keeping on. Maybe throw in a bit of bogus illegal psych-opps of our own, say post obserdlly illegal upcoming events. Then we can send the spys all over to stop nonexistant events. Or if as the government claims they are not spying it would make no difference. It would be kind of fun.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
14 Dec 2005
I agree with Brad. Not breaking the law, then who cares - keep on keeping on! Breaking the law -then beware!

The first part though seems a little extreme. No one would even vent the idea that a bogus report will stop protesters from protesting anything.
DooD!
14 Dec 2005
I for one am glad this article was posted. The fact that this story is "old news" to some doesn't make it irrelevant. If you've been to a few protests here and there-- like, say, the completely peaceful protests against the Bio Lab, you've no doubt seen people taking extensive pictures of the crowds-- and they don't seem to reporters or protestors of any kind. The fact that you even can see these people conspicuously taking pictures of everyone at these events is probably purposeful (what with the miniaturization of cameras), in order to say to you "Yes, you're being monitored. Yes, we regard you as a threat." It's an added bonus, I bet, for whoever's doing the monitoring-- a deterrant and, as is the case with all varieties of cops, a pissing contest. One they know they can win.

As for activists staging "bogus illegal psych-opps [sic]," I think they'd be just be wasting their own time. This site is monitored, I would imagine, so just by visiting it we're already on "the list," for whatever it's worth. Probably not worth much, but who knows? There are so many laws on the books that I would imagine everyone breaks one a day-- whether it's jaywalking, smoking a joint, or not buckling up your seat belt. If the authorities want to arrest someone they can and will. Because there's no way to avoid illegal activity if, like me, you are hard-pressed to come up with a single completely, unquestionably, universally LEGAL activity. So, yeah, we're fucked.

I'm just glad that some of this stuff is finally being reported with a critical edge by the mainstream media. The MSNBC article featured plenty of opinions against the practice of spying on nonviolent, protesting Americans. Just a year or two ago it might not have had any due to the slightly different political climate back then. I just hope this anti-Bush climate intensifies because it sure can't hurt.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
14 Dec 2005
I saw the piece on the NBC Nightly News last night, and it was pretty one sided. I've been to several of these activist meetings / convergence centers before, during and after various demonstrations. One was a Quaker meeting house in Burlington, Vt. Though the majority of the persons present are doing NOTHING more than exercising their rights, there are always a few, mostly anarchist types ( in one case an middle aged woman singing and playing a guitar) screaming about how they want to kill bush, "rip shit up", over throw the government, etc.. In short basically conspiraring to commmitt illegal activities. Not to mention you don't know who's present at the meeting, so you should be telling everyone your plans .I'm all for a diversity of tactics, but when you openly carry on about doing these types of activities, you are inviting the fbi, dod, cia, cnn, fox news, etc. to watch you, and in some cases do it legally..
Symbol is full of shit.
14 Dec 2005
"One was a Quaker meeting house in Burlington, Vt. Though the majority of the persons present are doing NOTHING more than exercising their rights, there are always a few, mostly anarchist types ( in one case an middle aged woman singing and playing a guitar) screaming about how they want to kill bush, "rip shit up", over throw the government, etc."

The Quakers are a pacifist group and this claim cannot be true. The claim is, more likely than not, being posted here in order to assist some cop to get a warrent to infiltrate the Quakers. This is EXACTLY how cops obtain such warrants.

Fuck whoever posted it.
To : @
14 Dec 2005
Yeah whatever... If you any knowledge of the Quakers, besides being pacifists, they offer others who are in need of, shall we say "shelter", shelter. Sort of like the Community Church of Boston. If I was you, I would complain to my seventh grade teacher about the accuracy of my textbooks. One more thought, as part of getting my undergrad degree (I'm 29, that's your age plus 16) I had to take a course in constitutional law. Trust me on this one, anything found on IMC would not be enough to get a "warrant to infiltrate" (whatever that is). Ok enough said @, now make sure you eat your vegatables and do your homework.
One More Thing @
14 Dec 2005
Can you explain to us what the word "fuck" actually means. It's not just a word that we hear in movies and whisper on the playground.
Oh, And...
14 Dec 2005
It's spelled "warrant" @ , not warrent". I shouldn't criticize because I'm not the world's best speller /typist, but hey, knowledge is power.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
14 Dec 2005
"You have nothing to worry about if you are not breaking the law"

Well clearly we can take a lot of laws off the books then, starting with the 4th ammendment, and due away with costly warrant processing clearly if you have nothing to hide there's no problem with the police shuffling through your things while your out so long as they tidy up when they're done.

If you know your history, from the Alien and Sedition acts of 1798, through the internment of Japaneese americans during WWII and the McCarthy era 's base less witch hunts, you can't possibly belive your own statement even if you don't agree that the current "Patriot" act and terrorist hyseria is as flawed as these historic injustices I defy you to show me what has changed in human nature or in the american law enforcement practice that would prevent similar miscarriages of justice.

A line must be drawn, we can argue back and forth over where to draw that line, but to say "You have nothing to worry about if you are not breaking the law" just doesn't hold up to historic scrutiny even if you stick to white washed high school textbooks as your historical source.
Well Said...
14 Dec 2005
Jon, I should apologize for my last three rants, I just get pissed when someone makes bogus accusations or goes off about something they know nothing about. Again please excuse the above rants.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
14 Dec 2005
i'm no expert on the 4th amendment but i am a law student so i'm perfectly happy not to "trust me on this one" as symbolic urges we do regarding her/his assurance that nothing posted on the imc site is enough to get a "warrant to infiltrate". like symbolic, i'm not sure what a "warrant to infiltrate" is, but i'm assuming everyone is just talking about a regular warrant to search. those aren't too difficult for cops to get.

the 4th amendment and the massachusetts constitution (article xiv) only protect us from "unreasonable searches and seizures." that means that the cops simply need to show that their search is reasonable. the standard for that is simply that cops have a reasonable suspicion that a crime was, is, or is about to be committed by the person and/or in the location stated in the warrant. as wadoo suggested, there are so many laws out there that it's not too difficult to show a reasonable suspicion that a political activist was, is, or is about to violate a law. i'm just talking about getting a warrant here, not about actually proving that a crime was committed (which any one who has kept up with recent (or not so recent) police tactics against political activists knows is not always the principal goal). there are also some exceptions to the warrant requirement: if the person gives her consent to be searched, if there's an emergency, or if something is in plain view. it's possible that the plain view exception could apply in the imc setting, but i'm not quite sure because i haven't researched the case law pertaining to public internet postings.

as for domestic covert investigations (ie, spying), remember those national security letters (nsl) that the washington post wrote about not too long ago? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/05/AR200511). nsl have been around for years but thanks to the patriot act it's become easier for the fbi to use them. with an nsl, the fbi can gather all kinds of info on people in the usa without getting a judge's approval, without suspecting that the person being investigated has committed, is committing, or is about to committ a crime, and without ever having to inform the person that she was investigated. all the fbi needs is for it to decide that going after you is relevant to a terrorism investigation. it's up to them to decide what constitutes "relevant."

also, if you're not a citizen of the usa and the bureau of citizenship and immigration services (the legal arm of the former ins that's now part of the department of homeland security) decides that you're a natioanl security risk then you can say good-bye to most constitutional protections including due process and the right to be informed of the evidence the government is using to show that you're a risk.
More proof that "Symbolic" doesn't know what he's talking about.
14 Dec 2005
I'm way older than you "Symbolic", so your comment "(I'm 29, that's your age plus 16) " is an example of pure arrogance and ignorance.

If you look over the documents that have been obtained by MSNBC regarding the Pentagon's "investigation" of various individuals and groups, some of it IS based on monitoring blogs. That is no different than monitoring IMC's for comments like your bullshit and libelous one about some meeting of the Quakers in Vermont that you claim to have attended. Given your demonstrated hatred for the Quakers and the left, why the fuck would you go to a Quakers meeting unless you had ill intent or were there to infiltrate or monitor it?

Look, I know what you are, mother fucker, and I stick with my position: go fuck yourself.
now, now kids
15 Dec 2005
let's not call each other names...
why don't we save that for the government?
To :@
15 Dec 2005
@, you really have to read Churchill's "Agents of Oppression". Tell me @, who do you work for? The oldest tactic used by the fbi (cointellpro) is to accuse others of being an informant, agent provateur, or speading misinformation about someone. @, do you get paid to troll on imc ? Or are you just someone who is slightly unbalanced and can't engage in a debate without making bogus accusations ? If the latter is true, I hear Dean is looking for campaign volunteers for '08 ( before you spout off about me being a right wing asshole or something like that, I voted for Nader in '04. I liked the speech he gave at Suffolk)).

As far as cuaughtmoc's post, if he or she is a law student, they may know more than I, however, vague chatter on imc, in massachusetts especially, would not be enough to get a search warrant. How could prove the information's reliable ? Then again, my major is politics, so I'm no legal expert.Anyway, I gotta go bed, I have a 10:30 class. @, remember to take your ridilin. Good night. Aloha.
BTW @
15 Dec 2005
I was at the Quaker meeting house in Burlington, VT in April of 2001. We stopped in Burlington before going to Quebec City to demonstrate against the FTAA , you know what that is Special Agent @ don't you?
To :@
15 Dec 2005
@, you really have to read Churchill's "Agents of Oppression". Tell me @, who do you work for? The oldest tactic used by the fbi (cointellpro) is to accuse others of being an informant, agent provateur, or speading misinformation about someone. @, do you get paid to troll on imc ? Or are you just someone who is slightly unbalanced and can't engage in a debate without making bogus accusations ? If the latter is true, I hear Dean is looking for campaign volunteers for '08 ( before you spout off about me being a right wing asshole or something like that, I voted for Nader in '04. I liked the speech he gave at Suffolk)).

As far as cuaughtmoc's post, if he or she is a law student, they may know more than I, however, vague chatter on imc, in massachusetts especially, would not be enough to get a search warrant. How could prove the information's reliable ? Then again, my major is politics, so I'm no legal expert.Anyway, I gotta go bed, I have a 10:30 class. @, remember to take your ridilin. Good night. Aloha.
The proof is in the target
15 Dec 2005
You, Symbolic, are targeting a real group with a real name and the statements you have made can or will have real consequences on that group and its very real members. I, on the other hand, am targeting an unnamed internet presence. That unnamed presence (aka Symbolic) is using IMC to smear easily identifiable real people. My goal is to neutralize the threat to the real group (the Quakers) and their real members.

Since your activities provoke harm to real activists who can easily be identified and my activities seek to neutralize you, it is your actions that benefit the government and my actions which benefit activists.

The above proves who you work for (the government) and disproves your accusation that what I am doing as any resemblence to COINTELPRO. All one needs to do is look at the consequences of the act and ask the question, "Who does it benefit?"
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
15 Dec 2005
"several imc's have been busted, searched, questioned by feds, disrupted during major events, had equipment confiscated, etc based solely on what has been posted on the newswire or in the comments."

Really depends on the comments and the topic of the comments. Symbolics anecdotal account of some nut at a quaker house, is not something to get all upset about.

The level of paranoia around here proves that the psych-opps is working, and the release of the list has done what it was supposed to do. It has focused activits inward and caused disruption and internal division.

This does not mean that the actions of the government are at all aligned with the proclaimed freedom in this country. Or that I don't think this is a good story to be elucidated.

We should be more constructive. Just watch what you say and who you say it to. Then what difference does it make if they infiltrate anything. It may keep them too busy to plan another war.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
15 Dec 2005
when exactly do y'all actually engage in activism?

the revolution will not be a comment!
Thanks Brad
15 Dec 2005
That's the point I'm trying to make, it's NOT THE QUAKERS, it's some nut at the meeting who puts everyone else in in the sights of the fbi or whoever. And by feeding into someones posts whom you may disagree with, you adding to the level on paranoia.
And @
15 Dec 2005
"Agents of Repression" is by Churchill and Wall, South End Press, 1988. I bought at the LPC for $11.00, you should check it out
One More Thing @
15 Dec 2005
If by chance you're not a special agent, your first name wouldn't be Sholom would it ? If you are, you were an associate, not really a friend of my old roomate Loren. Sholom is pretty angy dude and you come off and write just like him. Just curious.
The D.O.D. Should Quit Spying On Americans!
15 Dec 2005
If this doesn't feel like Nixon years? Same cronyism. Same DOD spying. Only difference is the CIA is joining in...
I downloaded the PDF files. How many more files does the DOD have, that we don't know about?
Of course it's wrong. And illegal.
Our mainstream media is totally ignoring real news.
I can't wait for 2006. The GOP is finished!
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
15 Dec 2005
Let's all take a deep breath.

The Quakers (especiallyl the AFSC,) have plenty of agents on them already because they actually do things and are able to articulate their positions in a no confrontational way that most people can understand. This makes them more of a treat to established order than a pack of bomb throwing radical that piss off everyone they encounter and actually provide a grate case for increasing the powers of the police state in the eyes of the populace.

The FBI's FOIA page has over 300 documents on the Quakers

From a security culture stand point linking, even tenuously, someone threatening political assasination with any organization or meeting place is a bad idea. But the whole tone of this discussion is way out of hand, we can be fairly sure AFSC is under some degree of monitoring and equally sure it goes beyonfd the FOIA docs referenced above. I doubt the anonymous allustion by someone who claims no affiliation to the quakers to someone else unrelated to quater organization passing through an open convergence center is unlikely to be verry useful to the feds.

can we stop eating ourselves alive now?

on a side note, please read all new comments before adding your own, that way you can put all your comments in one posting, this is much tidier and allows you to present a more coherent position.
See also:
http://www.afsc.org
http://ttp://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/religious_society_friends.htm
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
15 Dec 2005
For thsoe that wonder why there is photographers at large crowded events - they are always there! They are John Q. Public doing what he feels like doing. I was assisting at a fatal car wreck a few years back. We were getting the deceased out of the car and their was ten to twelve people taking photographs. None worked for the media, that's just what they do. They got really ticked when I had some FF's hold up a giant tarp to blocktheir view. Some people are just vultures and want to take photos were there is action or possible action. Only those that need to worry should be worrying. Uncle Sam is a busy man and has better things to do than worry about the unwashed and misguided.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
15 Dec 2005
"You were assisting at a car wreck", what do you do for work ? Not that it matters, just curious?
I know what you mean about photogs. Alot of times (myself included) other activists bring cameras to take pictures to post on here or other sites, or for their own use. But, you can usually tell who is taking surviellance pictures. When you see the same small group of older white guys wearing baseball hats, standing on the outskirts of every demonstration, there's a good ( a very good)chance that those folks are some type of police, fbi, etc.

BTW, do you think the bush administration will out me as a cia operative because I gave money to the Nader campaign last year ?
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
15 Dec 2005
The notion that someone, even at a meeting connected with a very pacifist organization, could be shooting his/her mouth off about violent bullshit is hardly implausible on its face. The world isn't suffering from a shortage of people who need attention so badly that they'll say anything to get it.

There is also the known phenomenon of agents provocateurs, so we have two reality-based hypotheses which could equally well account for such behavior.

There's also no shortage of paranoid conspiracy theorists who automaticaly accuse anyone who disagrees with their assertions of being part of the Great Big Conspiracy.

Folks who have been reading this iMC for long enough may remember a guy who, over the course of a couple of years, accused about two dozen named individuals of being members of a Great Big Government Conspiracy against him- on "evidence" so flimsy that it wouldn't serve as a Kleenex.

As I recall, he also threw the word "COINTELPRO" around a lot.

Of course, that's all in the past now, and serves merely as an example of the pitfalls of circular reasoning and affirming the consequent.

Right?
to symbolic
15 Dec 2005
[this comment was hidden earlier today by jproulx- no idea why- i'm reposting it]

1. it's 'agents of repression' btw
2. it's true the quakers open their spaces as convergence centers or meeting points before rallies. they have been doing that since their involvement as shelters for escaped slaves in the underground railroad. makes sense they would continue to support the fight against today's oppression by offering shelter to those who oppose the current setup.
3. "Trust me on this one, anything found on IMC would not be enough to get a 'warrant to infiltrate' " guess again charlie, several imc's have been busted, searched, questioned by feds, disrupted during major events, had equipment confiscated, etc based solely on what has been posted on the newswire or in the comments. i'm surprised you don't remember this happening during the burlington/quebec anti-ftaa rally actually, since you were there.
4. this msnbc article is based on hard evidence, which is what we should base any suspicions on if we want to avoid unnecessary paranoia and paralysis. given the recent moves to erase all privacy and political freedom, we should not be surprised, but still be outraged.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
15 Dec 2005
Sorry shake...

I meant to hide a duplicate post near that one, not yours, thanks for reposting and being civil about it.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
15 Dec 2005
it doesn't matter wheteher or not you are breaking the law. i have seen old men and kids attacked by police. i have been thrown against a tree by a huge cop for nothing miore than excercizing my first amendment rights. they don't care about the law. look at Amado Diahlo and COINTELPRO! you do not have to break their laws to be targeted. too many innocent people have been killed, arrested and harrassed for one to still believe that.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
16 Dec 2005
If the DoD is in fact spying, then you guys are so screwed. I love it!
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
16 Dec 2005
It's not the DoD.

It's me me me.
Hey Noah
18 Dec 2005
Was that you getting "thrown" against a tree on the common across from the military recruiting station a few months back. If it was, common sense would dictate that when you weigh like a 125 pounds, you don't try to get up in the face of a 220 lb. cop. Grow up !
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
19 Dec 2005
Good point. Can't run with the big dogs then stay on the porch. Police only use fore when it is justified and needed. If you weren't breaking the law then you wouldn't have been introduced to Mr. tree.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
19 Dec 2005
so the cops are justified in attacking someone way way smaller than them? because i highly doubt that i posed a threat to the city of Boston or the police.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
19 Dec 2005
Police are justified in using the right amount of force to maintain the peace of the general public. What were you doing, besides playing the role of a victim, that would cause any uniformed police officer to take interest in you?
Not Really, but
19 Dec 2005
Noah, to play devil's advocate to R.lee's post, do you think it's wise to get in a cops face? I've been to my share of protests, and it seems theat most of the boston cops are pretty chilled. Of course there are some dicks, but they all are human ( I think). Point is , you piss off someone to much, they're going to hit back. Tease a dog, it bites. Exploit the mid east, they fly planes into your buildings.
I was at a counter recruitment action where I think you had your problem, and I don't know what happened prior to the incident , so I'm just speculating.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
20 Dec 2005
"Police only use fore when it is justified and needed. If you weren't breaking the law then you wouldn't have been introduced to Mr. tree."

what a breathless acquiescence to an obviously flawed system! and naive, and misinformed, and biased, and...
here's how i read the quote above: most people make mistakes or sometimes consciously allow themselves to abuse their power over others, but there are some who are beyond this frailty: they are called police. if one sees them throwing unarmed people against trees, it is only because they are expected to do that to people whom they judge to have broken the law.

why are you two only defending police brutality? why not also defend the agencies who are spying illegally on americans who hold signs and speak their minds?
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
20 Dec 2005
Lets look back at the Army birthday celebration in Cambridge. Keeping in mind that this was a birthday party for an organization and not a recruitment or glorification of war. It was a birthday party! There was a few unwashed and misguided fools who kept violating the space that the Army had a permit for. On top of that the Under Secretary of the Army was present and no one is allowed near him. Add to that these same fools kept climbing over the barriers SEVERAL times as well of just making general asses of themselves. Guess what happened after they were asked poltely several times to stop breaking the law. They were arrested AND they whined about it. I attended events, on both sides of the fence, and I know that there are a few jerks in every crowd, both sides of the fence, but the vast majority of police that do crowd control details would rather be home with their families, reading a book or study for their college classes than dela with some idiot who thinks he/she has all the answers. The PD just want to do their job - maintain the peace - and go home.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
20 Dec 2005
If you read my post and understood it, you'd realize I'm not defending police brutality (devil's advocate), I'm just stating the obvious, choose your tactics carefully.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
20 Dec 2005
Vet, you have effectvely derailed the discussion of the unconstitutional attacking of US citizen rights by the pres. to a discussion about police practices. Lets get back on topic.

Now that we know the pres is authorizing the spying on innocent US citizens for political gain, how long until we throw him out of office and try him for treason!
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
20 Dec 2005
My best guess is that we'll be ushering him out of office as a great man who lead the war on terror about the same time a new President is democratically elected by the people.
Veteran, Go Back to Your Fiction
20 Dec 2005
veteran,

you always seem to claim that news here is biased or fictional, and then make absurd claims yourself, like:

"we'll be ushering him out of office as a great man who lead the war on terror"

who is so excited about bush's war on terror? who sees him as a great man? a look at recent polls (http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm ) shows that most people disapprove of bush. a majority. is a sign of greatness disapproval? so stop putting forth the idea that most people think he's doing a great job. they don't. the numbers are there.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
20 Dec 2005
Maybe you misunderstood what my post said.
I didn't say I thought he was a great man. When future generations pick up their history books they will be reading about what a great man he was who led the war on terror. He was elected by the people to sere the people - don't have to like it (none of us) but we do have to be mature enough to live with it. As always, the President does not have the power to do what he wants when he wants with no assistance. Every single decision he makes has many, many people involved with it. His decisions are based on what he gets and it matters not who is the President, the process is still the same. Those theory fools may have you believe that the President is running wild but he has checks and balances just like verything else.

The war on terror has been coming for years and if you didn't see that then you should pay closer attention to not just what goes on in your backyard but what goes on in the next state, the next country or the next continent. Being able to see outside the box is required! Anytime even one twisted sub-human animal can blow up women and kids at an insane attempt of furthering their cause or due to their misguided ideals -we need to put them down. You can;t reason with them, you can't talk to them. They only know war and they only want war. Nobody in their right mind wants to head off into battle - ESPECIALLY those that have been there. BUT to do it so that any little one in any country on any spot of this planet does not have to is well worth it.

PS -What does this have to do with being spied on?
Fake Police Brutality and Boston's Protesters
20 Dec 2005
Noah claiming he was assaulted by police when he instigated the event is related to the problem of protesters at the Flag Day event putting fake blood on themselves so that they could take fake police brutality pics of themselves and post it to Indymedia.

Police Brutality Fakers belong with Rape Victim Fakers in a pit of derision!
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
20 Dec 2005
The plot thickens...............................
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
20 Dec 2005
no symbolic this was at the protest in march.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
20 Dec 2005
why would i lie about something like that? i have what we like to call integrity, and i, unlike you, do not use a fake name to hide behind.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
20 Dec 2005
So, until we eliminate the ability of " Anytime even one twisted sub-human animal can blow up women and kids at an insane attempt of furthering their cause or due to their misguided ideals -we need to put them down." we can expect to have our constitutional rights eliminated. I am sorry vet, but we will never completely get rid of this threat. We can reduce it and we have two ways of doing this: a) with force (dictatorship) or b) allowing them a point of access to express their grievances (democracy). Bush and you are choosing the former, our contry historically opperates on the latter. Those who wish to change the way this country deals with peoples concers, to a system of "put[ing] them down", again have the same two choices to implement those policy options. Once again Bush and you have choosen the forceful, dictitorial way over the open democratic way. That is your choice to make, but don't continue to claim you are pro-democracy while cheerleading fascist policies.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
20 Dec 2005
Veteran says: Being able to see outside the box is required! Anytime even one twisted sub-human animal can blow up women and kids at an insane attempt of furthering their cause or due to their misguided ideals -we need to put them down.

If you replace 'misguided ideals' with misguided ideals based on lies, "put them down" with "smear them with feces and throw them in jail", and twisted sub-human animal with Bush (OK those are actually interchangeable) then you'll see that Veteran does indeed have a very good point.
Sorry Noah
20 Dec 2005
I said I THOUGHT it might have been you. I could have witnessed another incident....BTW, "Symbolic" is joke among my friends, not something to "hide behind". I'm assuming you have some. Here's my e-mail.
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
21 Dec 2005
Brad, again you demostrate that you really have little or no clue as to how the world really works.

"We can never get rid of the threat" You nailed it on the head. YOU do realize that they are a threat. A threat to the safety of everyone on the planet. AND I know that WE can never get rid of it but we can control and thin out the threat. Not a job ANYONE wants but a job that must be done.

I would pay big money to see you sit down with a couple of these animals and try and discuss democracy with them. They hate you for what you are and what you have. You can't reson with those that are unable to be reasoned with. Individuals that butcher innocent men, women and child are the types you want to discuss democracy with? You can't be that blind and misguided? Prior to them sawing your coconut off, you'd be screaming for the closest QRF. keep the comedy coming!
AND...............
21 Dec 2005
What happened to the wire tapping and why did Noah decide to become a tree hugger?
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
22 Dec 2005
"Prior to them sawing your coconut off..."

>Guffaw!<
sawing coconuts and bad apples
22 Dec 2005
Dearest "Veteran", why is it that when a few American soldiers smear feces on people, drag them around on leashes, beat prisoners to death, etc. etc. they are called bad apples, but when two ALLEGEDLY muslim extremist groups chop off some heads it's an indictment on an entire people? And speaking of beheadings, can you explain why again the one dude Nick Berg had Zacharias Moussaui's email address in his laptop? Another crazy coincidence no doubt!
One for the Veteran.
22 Dec 2005
Hey Veteran...
Tortured victims in Iraq were beaten, stabbed, sufficated and mutilated to death. By United States Military, CIA and KBR associates. There are numerous pictures on the Net. Two sources are Information Clearing House and http://www.thenausea.com/usa-iraq.html
If you don't want to understand the truth? Why spew lies?
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
22 Dec 2005
Because we aren't a race of savages ??
Re: DoD spying on Boston (and other places)
23 Dec 2005
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Hidden with code "Policy Violation"
Commentary :: Human Rights
END CHRISTOZIONAZISM NOW !
by christoziodestroyer
(No verified email address) 22 Dec 2005
the following post was hidden ALTHOUGH IT WAS NO DUPLICATE AT ALL IN THAT ITS PRIOR POSTINGS STARTING WITH THE ORIGINAL ONE HAD BEEN HIDDEN IMMEDIATELY THEREFORE YOU CAN'T DUPLICATE WHAT'S HIDDEN AND NOBODY COULD SEE.
AND NOTICE HOW THESE BASTARD ZIONAZIS WHO LORD IT OVER INDY WITH PASSWORD DID NOT EXPLAIN WHY THIS POST WAS" "DISRUPTIVE"...BUT THEN AGAIN THEY ARE PAID TO TROLL INDY 24/7 TO DELETE EVERY POST THAT THREATENS THE CHRISTOZIONAZI/WALL STREET ESTABLISHEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hidden with code "Duplicate post"
News :: Education
boston policy either wrong or arbitrary
by commentator
(No verified email address) 20 Dec 2005
christozionazi censorship is what boston is all about
Hidden with code "Other"
(this is posted in other locations online, this contains content that could be considered "disruptive". for almost 5 years Boston IndyMedia has had a policy of hiding religious posts that are not specifically related to current news OF religion or religious groups because we consider them to be advertising. this particular post is hidden for all of those reasons, and this repost (and any others of its type) will be hidden because they are disruptive. cursing at our editorial decisions will not make us change our policies. writing us a personal e-mail or posting to our editorial list is a much more reliable way of convincing us that we have hidden an article in error. please consider that before reposting this particular article with gratuitous cursing or capital letters, or any others that you think we may have hidden inappropriately.) :

1. WHAT'S WRONG WITH POSTING ON SEVERAL LOCATIONS ONLINE?
WHAT'S WRONG WITH TRYING TO GAIN MORE VISIBILITY AS MUCH VISIBILITY AS POSSIBLE FOR CRITICAL THINKING??????????????

2.CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN BY "DISRUPTIVE"????????????????
I MEAN LEST ONE SHOULD THINK THAT SUCH POSTS ARE DISRUPTIVE TO THE CHRISTONAZI STRUCTURE OF POWER.

3.DESTROY FASCIST CENSORSHIP EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS WHAT YOU ARE DISRUPTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
News :: Education
WHY CENSORSHIP ON BOSTON?
by antizio
(No verified email address) 18 Dec 2005
WHY WAS THIS POST HIDDEN IT VIOLATED NO POLICY WHATSOEVER FUCK CHRISTOZIONAZI CENSORSHIP!
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Hidden with code "Policy Violation"
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FUCK CHRISTOZIONAZI CENSORSHIP ON BOSTON!
by status hidden
(No verified email address) 14 Dec 2005
WHY WAS THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE HIDDEN AND WHY IS IT IN POLICY VIOLATION AND WHY CAN'T WHY EVEN REPLY TO THE SPAM COMMENT ANY MORE?

FASCIST MOTHERFUCKERS!!!
Hidden with code "Policy Violation"
News :: Education
gospel jesus never was 12.13.2005 version
by aletes
(No verified email address) 13 Dec 2005
jesus as portrayed by the 4 canonic gospels is a lie.
SUMMARY

i solved the 2000-year- old quest for the historical jesus i think.

simon bar jair leader of jewish resistance fighters during the 66-70 AD phase of the 66-73 AD antiroman war gave the gospel fabricators the story they transmogrified into "jesus" ' resurrection.
but first i shall demonstrate how the gospel lie also stems from the by the gospels skewed and twisted story of a second character in the same war:
jesus bar sappha also portrayed by flavius josephus in his book jewish war which is the underlying basis for the gospel liars.
thus it will become clear that the false gospel jesus was the remix of both simon bar jair (simon peter) and jesus bar saffia. call it patchwork or collage. minor pieces were added to the mix too such as a jesus bar ananus also a character from flavius joseph's jewish war.

JESUS BAR SAPPHA

The first occurrence of jesus bar sappha is at II,20,4,566 in the jewish war (bellum iudaicum).bar is aramaic for hebrew ben meaning son of.
we are in the context of the 66-73 AD war by which militant jews tried desperately and in vain to regain their independence from the romans hoping god would send a son of man down the clouds that would lead them to victory and to rule the world as prophesied or believed prophesied by their all-important prophet or believed-prophet daniel.
now one might object here that we are accostumed to think jesus lived and died as the gospels have it under pontius pilate who ruled until 37 AD.
yet it will appear clear to you by the end of my essay that this is a gospel lie tout court.
to begin with flavius joseph tells us in another book of his called antiquitates judaicae or jewish ancient history that john the baptist died in 36 and since the gospels have it that "jesus" started preaching from john the baptist's death or arrest then he couldn't have died before 39 AD that is after pilate's tenure in judaea anyway because christian lore has it that jesus preached for 3 years and then died.
there is no certainly authentic/truthful record/document/source whatsoever attesting to a charismatic messianic jewish leader by the name of jesus who was crucified under pontius pilate.

whereas there is ample testimony to a jesus - our jesus bar sappha - who fought (and died?) around 67 AD.
and this jesus i'll proceed to show will look to you very familiar very much like gospel jesus but with inverted purposes and means.
now at bellum iudaicum II,20,4,566 flavius josephus who witnessed many of the events he describes in his book albeit with a proroman bias jewish turncoat that he was introduces a jesus bar sappha one of the high priests elected to militarily preside over idumea first - a region near judea - and then galilee during the antiroman struggle.

anyway josephus has been handed down to us only in greek but he originally wrote in aramaic and must have said something like yeshu'a bar sappha which sounds suspiciously like jesus son of (jo)seph doesn't it to begin with...
I am not thereby necessarily implying that saffa=(yus)sef=joseph. flavius josephus has another 2 variants to this jesus's last name:
bar sapphia and bar saphat.
Could these all be variant/short aramaic forms for hebrew yussef or yehoshaphat?
Or could the gospel liars/rewriters simply have replaced flavius' sappha/sapphia/saphat or whatever it was meant to be with joseph? for dissimulation purposes i mean.
bar means son of in aramaic of course.
aramaic being the variant of hebrew spoken in palestine and the middle east around jesus' time I century AD.

but even if sappha/sapphia/saphat had nothing to do with joseph as a name still again joseph that is yussef could be an overwrite to hide the real jesus's last name.

BARABBAS WAS JESUS

let me try and make this point absolutely clear:
there is no evidence whatsoever that gospel jesus ever existed.
there is no hard evidence whatsoever that his father was called joseph.
but if you want to fabricate a regime religion for mass consumptio you'd better twist bits of truth and overwrite/rewrite them so that the people after a while having forgotten all the details will relate to your foundational myth because they will somehow have a memory of some heroic jesus of some kind or messiah etc.
in other words you can't feed the masses a 911 that didn't happen - you must at least bring down the twin towers for real so everybody goes wow and then they'll be more inclined to accept the regime propaganda bullshit about 19 kamikazes from the caves hijacking planes noone ever saw.

similarly they may have taken jesus bar sappha/sapphia/saphat and turned him into jesus bar yussef.

Robert Eisenman in his all-important book James the brother of Jesus/faber and faber 1997/vol 1 avers that barabbas the famous murderer allegedly preferred to jesus by the jews for freeing from prison really stands for bar abbas which literally means son of the father which makes little if any sense at all as a last name.

but in the acts of the apostles 1.23 and 15.22 we have a joseph barsabbas and a judas barsabbas respectively the second one even being called barabbas in a variant reading of a manuscript thus attesting to the confusion/possible equivalence barabbas=barsabbas.
joseph and judas being 2 of jesus' brothers according to the gospels.
now doesn't bar sabbas sound suspiciously like our jesus bar sappha from flavius josephus?

ancient aramaic probably differentiated little between p and b just like arabic has nablus from neapolis for instance and arabic represents a more ancient pronunciation phase of this language cluster. which means that arabic pronunciation of today is closer to how hebrew/aramaic was pronounced in the first century AD than modern hebrew.
in other words:
aramaic BAR SABBA resembles BAR SAPPHA in pronunciation.
again:
the barabbas that is bar abbas of gospel lore might have been the real jesus of history the lestès as flavius josephus called jewish zealot revolutionaries of his time - I century AD: lestès is greek for latro in latin meaning robber or bandit - today they'd say terrorists.

but acts of the apostles has bar sabbas as surname of 2 namesakes of jesus' brothers therefore if they really were jesus' bros then it was the...bar sabbas or bar sappha family!

further evidence that the gospels are just skewed rewrites of the real story of a jewish antiroman fighter called jesus is in a few variant manuscripts of matthew (refered to by eisenman) who instead of simply calling the gospel lestès/latro barabbas call him...JESUS BARABBAS!!!

need any more evidence?


JESUS BAR SABBA AS HIGH PRIEST

now josephus flavius tells us this jesus was one of the high priests.
the reader accostumed to 2000 years of gospel lie will object that gospel jesus is a poor carpenter's son...
but i will proceed to show how the 4 canonic gospels are a pack of lies so i refer the reader further below after which he/she will have to concede that the minimum we can say about the poor carpenter's son story is that we have no evidence whatsoever corroborating it so we can only suspend judgement about it for the time being.
what if jesus son of (jo)seph had instead really been jesus bar sappha one of the high priests as flavius' jesus bar sappha reportedly was?
anyway. maybe sappha/sapphia/saphat does not = joseph but again joseph may be an overwrite for sappha.
and again gospel bar abbas/acts bar sabbas ie bar sappha the lestes/latro/bandit who had been involved in the uprising against rome according to the canonic gospels really is a much better match for whatever the historical jesus might have been in the turmoil of those revolution-laden times.
no meek pacifist gandhiesque tax-paying pro-foreigner jesus would have made it with the jewish masses of his time,who were hell-bent on awaitin' a fighting messiah who would free them from the hated romans with all their taxes and crosses for rebels.


THE LAKE OF GALILEE SCENARIO


now flavius josephus in his jewish war at this point knows exactly what he's talking about because he too before switching sides had been assigned by jerusalem to be in charge of galilee's defence.
but since he was quite lukewarm already about fighting the mighty roman the more radical jewish militants started blasting him as a traitor - which he turned out to be - and in the hippodrome of the town of tarichaeae on the sea -that is in jewish parlance lake - of galilee also called lake tiberias and lake gennezareth - the radicals kicked up a riot agains flavius (who by then was still only joseph) shouting he should be stoned or burned alive.
the chief instigators of the fuss says flavius were our jesus son of sapphia - maybe better sapphia variant of sappha flavius uses the first time he mentions him - and a john...

JOHN BAR ZEBED=BAR SAPHAT?

so there you have your gospel jesus and john - though probably not john the baptist because flavius in another book antiquitates judaicae informs us that john the baptist died around 36 AD.
jesus bar sapphia had by 66 or 67 been assigned to governing tiberias a nearby town also in galilee and also on the seashore that is lakeshore very familiar to the reader from gospel lore...
so there you have your jesus just exactly where the gospels place him in galilee near the lake - but not out to perform miracles and give to caesar what's caesar's but instead out to fight caesar to the bitter end alongside john...this john may well have been the one among gospel jesus' apostles called john the son of zebedee and thought to be the evangelist - and he may have been jesus' brother too although the name john is not among those of jesus' bros in the gospels - because ZEBED(ee) sounds suspiciously like a variant greek transliteration of the aramaic SAPHAT which is one of the 3 variants in flavius joseph's jewish war for jesus' last name:SAPPHA/SAPPHIA/SAPHAT.

note also how jesus bar sappha/barsabbas/barabbas that is (maybe) son of (jo)seph is a high priest in flavius and is assigned to galilee presumably from jerusalem see of high priests.

also please note that flavius joseph upon introducing jesus bar sappha says he was one of the high priests plural which means that around that time - about 66 AD - there were more than just one high priest.

MORE ON JOHN BAR ZEBED = BAR SAPHAT

take your 'matthew' 13:55's list of jesus' brothers:
the standard scientific edition of the new testament nestle-aland/novum testamentum graece et latine/2002 has in the original greek "james and joseph and simon and judas" .

but instead of joseph we find IOANNES (john) as variant reading in:
1. the all-important codex alpha 01 IV century london brit libr add 43275 (albeit not clearly legible);
2. codex D, V century cambridge univ libr
3. codex gamma 036, X century oxford+st petersburg
and many other manuscripts.

how interesting.
maybe the real name of jesus' 2nd brother was john not joseph.
if so this brother john would come after james.
"james and john and simon and judas".

but james and john are also the names of jesus' 3d and 4th disciples according to 'matthew' 4:21:
" 2 brothers, james the son of zebedee and john his brother" .
therefore what the underlying original text may have said was that jesus son of
SAPHAT (flavius joseph)
SABBA (gospel (bar)abbas,acts (bar)sabbas)
ZEB_ED
=BAR SAPHAT=BAR SABBAS=BAR ZEBED in aramaic had 2 brothers by the names of james and john who went on to naturally become 2 of his first disciples.

one of the 24 priestly courses that is groups of jewish priests taking turns in attending to the jerusalem temple was called HAPPIZZEZ and is attested to as living in nazareth albeit after AD 135.
what if jesus had been a happizzez high priest?
check this out :
SAPHAT
SABBA
ZEB_ED
HAPPIZZ...


LET'S RECAP A BIT

so jesus really was:
1.a jewish high priest from jerusalem ;
2.a theocommunist jewish radical antiroman messianic but this-worldy militant fighting the war for freedom from the romans and return to the golden david and maccabee era of jewish independence ;
3.military commander in the 66-73 jewish-roman war.around the lake of galilee or tiberias or gennezareth .

AGAIN LET ME EMPHASIZE THAT IT IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG TO LOOK FOR JUST ONE REAL HISTORICAL JESUS.this is the mistaken approach that has led many truth-seekers astray so far.
because it is absolutely clear from the gospels' modus operandi that gospel jesus is the product of collage work . reediting together broken pieces of various would-be-messiahs of the first century AD.
the gospels' jesus is the product of centuries of patchwork.


ENTER THE ROMANS


alright let's roll on.
flavius continues the jesus story at bellum iudaicum III,9,7,450 ff:
here jesus bar sapphia becomes bar saphat but it's always the same jesus barsappha/barsaba/barabbas in charge of defending galilee against the incoming roman army and jewish turncoats the likes of flavius.
who graciously says here that jesus commanded a band of brigands - today they'd say terrorists...
that is patriots freedom fighters.
mind you not that I sympathize with them in any way: i hate all imperialisms and therefore i hate the romans
but i also hate all religious fundamentalisms and if jesus bar sappha had won we would now have a world-wide iran...or orthodox israel.

roman general soon-to-become-emperor vespasianus with his son and fellow jew-butcherer titus arrives near tiberias and proceeds to lay siege and build camps.
first he sends out officer valerianus and 50 horsemen to parlay with jesus' patriots who not only won't surrender but proceed to attack valerianus led by jesus who forces the romans to flee but then just before the bulk of the romans somehow manages to enter tiberias jesus and his men flee to nearby tarichaeae also on the lake..

now flavius informs us that both tiberias and tarichaeae lie at the feet of mountains - just like we know from the gospels' mount sermons of the doctored jesus...

and here comes the whole real story about boats on the lake and fishermen who become fishers of men.
the inhabitants of tarichaeae who evidently sided with jesus had readied a number of large boats on the adjoining lake both for the purpose of fleeing if things turned nasty and to fight a possible sea battle against the romans or pelt the romans from the lake that the jews call sea.

so the romans start building up their siege camp for tarichaeae but bold jesus' guerrillas assail them with hit-and-run guerrilla tactics.
a group of jewish fighters fights from the boats another from the plain in front of the city.
they have no fear of sinking like gospel simon...
instead it's the romans who dread the fury of the jews and titus has to rebuke them - which in the gospel lie becomes jesus rebuking simon and the others for their lack of faith.

eventually the jews on the plain have to flee and others try desperately to join the fighters already on the boats.
this in the gospel misrepresentation becomes the storm that threatens to sink simon peter's boat...
the romans capture tarichaeae.
resistance continues on the lake.
jesus and his men flee trhu the plain says flavius josephus so at this point they drop off our radar screen.
vespasian joins titus in tarichaeae and congratulates his son over the slaughter...and orders that someone be put to death.

this is an all-important point because here you would expect the accounting for the capture and crucifiction of jesus - the punishment romans meted out on rebels.
instead all manuscripts that handed down flavius' bellum iudaicum to us...contain a gap here so we don't know the name or names of those vespasian orders put to death!
coincidence - i'd rather say deliberate erasure on the part of later church rewriters who kept flavius' manuscripts under tight lock for centuries....

bear with me there's more to come.


LACUNA


the technical term for a gap in a manuscript is lacuna.
at flavius josephus jewish war III,10,6,505 there's a lacuna just where we may have expected to read jesus' name as the chief crucified by the romans for rebellion after the capture of tarichaeae on the lake of galilee.
but the church daddies would not let us realize who the real crucified jesus really was mostly based on so they erased this bit most likely.
also notice here how this is the only lacuna in the entire bellum judaicum book! if i am not mistaken.
anyway it's pretty obvious just whose name is missing there and how the real jesus was put to death - the romans always crucified rebels except when they were roman citizens in which case they did them the favor of just beheading them thus cutting their suffering short.
and since tarichaeae lay at the feet of a mountain it is likely the lacuna also told us that jesus was crucified on the mountain for all to see the macabre terroristic deterrent spectacle of what end awaited those who dared defy the romans ...

CARPENTERS

anyway it's not over yet because a bunch of heroic jihadist patriots are still resisting on the boats on the lake.
and their credo is no surrender.
so vespasian orders rafts built to attack the lakeborne rebels.
around the lake of tiberias/galilee/gennezareth there was plenty of logging to be done so the job is quickly carried thru by the roman army's many...CARPENTERS!
who of course in the gospel twisting and distorting of facts become jesus' father joseph who was a poor carpenter from nazareth in galilee which didn't even exist at the time most likely but anyway centuries later when the current text of the gospels was finally end-concoted in its present form everybody would believe this crap in the west because they knew shit about palestinian geography and the few who did would accept the story because the lakeshores were very woody anyway so what more natural than being a carpenter in nazareth which in the meantime had been founded for real...
see my essay the nazareth lie for more on nazareth.
link in bibliography at bottom.

flavius now informs us that the lake was rich in fish and that's where the gospel lie of jesus' disciples /apostles as fishermen originates.

by now you will have started to grasp the modus operandi of those mischievous westernized proroman gospel fabricators:
they took bits and pieces of underlying truth from flavius josephus' book and rewrote the story turning the fighting jesus into a meek nonviolent poor guy only intent on healing the sick and chasing demons...
and multiplying loaves and fish for mass picnics on lake gennezareth.
what a sick twist.
so jesus son of sappha high priest in jerusalem sent to galilee to fight the romans there becomes a little gandhi recommending to pay the roman tax which was the very reason the war and the real jesus' desperate fight were all about.

now the romans having built powerful rafts and packed them with legionaries proceed to slaughter the boatborne jews despite the latter's heroic resistance.
flavius depicts dramatically this epic scene of sinking boats and dying jews and lake reddening with their blood which the gospels turn into jesus walking on the water when in fact it was the romans who walked on the water aboard their rafts and the jews who did the same having tied all the boats together so as to form a blockade and were probably jumping from one to the other. and it wasn't simon who was afraid of sinking in a storm but the real jews who sank and drowned with their boats...

none of them got out alive.


FISHERS OF MEN


and now at last the gospel story of the fishermen called on by jesus to become apostles and fishers of men in the spiritual sense for afterworldly purposes.
the real jesus story in flavius ends much more graphically:
the romans having butchered all the jewish partisans on the boats the lake got filled with corpses and since it was still summer soon a terrible stink filled the air and the boat wreckage and many of the dead were washed ashore and the rot soon became overwhelmingly pestilent.
so when the gospel rewriters/overwriters edified us with the saying of the falsified jesus that now peter and andrew etc were to follow him and become fishers of men what else could it be a distortion of if not of...
the tragic fact that there certainly being real fishermen on the lake which was so rich in various fish those real fishermen in the aftermath of the battle went about resuming their daily fishing but since there were thousands of corpses in the lake many of those who hadn't been washed ashore yet ended up getting stuck in the fishermen's nets who thus became fishers of (dead) men whereas in the gospel lie it's simon & co who prompted by jesus set out to fish and their catch is so plentiful they can hardly pull it up on board without sinking!
what a sick sadistic twist - what fun must it have been for the imperial gospel forgers to turn the slaughter into a fishing party and the dead into fish!

Another explanation or one that could coexist with the first is that the romans on the rafts may have included retiarii for close-quarter combat - the fighters with nets that got cast over the enemies to immobilize them and thus capture or butcher them more easily.

yes i'm aware that the fishers-of-men imagery is also derived from jeremiah 16:16 - but i think the old testament inspiration here may mesh with the rewriting of history.


SIMON SON OF GHIORA/JAIR AND THE JERUSALEM SCENARIO


so now comes the source for the part of the gospel lie that deals with jerusalem.
did gospel "jesus" really exist?
no.
the real jesus was jesus bar sappha described above - as far as the galilee scenario in the gospel lie is concerned .
plus simon a violent theo-com(munist) antiroman patriot who thought his god would make him rex judaeorum and help him drive the romans out of palestine as far as the jerusalem scenario in the gospel lie is concerned.
instead the romans erased jerusalem off the map and murdered him.
now i shall proceed to prove all this.
only thing i'd like to make clear:
i am not quite sure i am the first to aver that jesus was sappha+simon because although i am well versed in classics i can't say i am aware of each and every single bit of jesus literature re the historical jesus of the past 2 or 3 hundred years and all times.
so if someone else came up with my same arguments before me please let me know.

now first of all:
why is gospel jesus a fake?
well first because he wasn't from nazareth.
for nazareth see my
the nazareth lie
http://cleveland.indymedia.org/news/2005/12/18218.php

anyway what really further proves that the gospel jesus is a lie is that at the time - a time of massive antiroman unrest in palestine - a proroman jewish messiah as gospel jesus is pictured to have been would never ever have enjoyed popularity and would never ever have been targeted by the proroman jewish priestly establishment or crucified by the romans - because he would have been their ally.

having thus established that gospel jesus is a fabrication how was this fabrication achieved?
pure invention?
no - the method was rather conflation of real people and events of first-century palestine but totally reversed and distorted to skew and falsify history in portraiting violent jewish revolutionaries as meek gandhiesque proroman tax-paying asskissers.

gospel jesus again being a collage of different characters from the messianic era in jewish palestine of the I century AD is also based on the very real simon bar ghiora but again reversed and deformed into a proroman idiot.
one only needs to carefully read the book bellum iudaicum - war against the jews - by flavius josephus a jewish turncoat who had betrayed the antiroman movement and switched sides.
the war in question happened between 66 and 70 AD with some fighting lasting into 73.
It was a horrible slaughter which ended with future emperor titus erasing jerusalem off the map after a long siege and the romans capturing the revolutionary resistance leader simon bar ghiora - simon son of ghiora - bringing him to rome for display in titus' and his father vespasianus' triumph and then executing him in the infamous tullianum jail/death chamber at the foot of the capitol hill.
I wrote elsewhere about how this very same simon also became the biggest piece of the "saint peter" puzzle:
http://utah.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/11763.php

so grab your flavius josephus jewish war VII 2,2.
the romans have entered jerusalem erased it to the ground and slaughtered most everyone and looted whatever they've found.
But resistance commander Simon had hidden in a subterranean secret gallery with his most trusted friends and a bunch of stonecutters with the aim of continuing to mine the gallery so as to find an opening onto some safe spot whence they might escape the romans.
but they soon gave up hope because they'd almost run out of food and made little progress in the excavations.
so Simon "put on white tunics and a purple cloak over them and came out of the ground where the temple had stood".
doesn't it sound like the real underlying model for the gospel fabricators who twisted it into the resurrection of "jesus"?
1-in the gospels we find the same element of jesus' tomb carved - newly carved - in rock.
2-when jesus resurrects he appears to some in white shining clothes/light.
3-when jesus is arrested and tortured his tormentors clothe him in a mock-kingly mantel purple in color.
4-both the real simon and the forged jesus "resurrect" by coming out of the ground and from the carved rock.
5-the simon of history resurfaces where the temple had stood - hadn't gospel jesus prophesied he would rebuild the temple in 3 days alluding to the temple of his body? well when the real simon resurfaces a few days had passed since the romans had occupied jerusalem and thereby destroyed the temple.
6.those who first saw simon in josephus were paralyzed by fear just like the first people to whom "jesus" appeared in the gospels right after resurrecting.
7.in josephus after the initial surprise those who first saw simon-without recognizing him-presumably roman soldiers presiding over the temple ruins run to their commander - just like in the gospels the women to whom jesus appeared ran to the apostles.
8.simon had wanted to be king of the jews - messianic king in the maccabean priestly-king tradition and the garment of such kings was the purple cloak whereas the white tunics were the garments of priests and militant daily-bathing sect members such as john the baptist essenes etc.

Enough "coincidences" folks?
no wait i ain't done yet.

simon gets arrested but not killed on the spot because titus wants to parade the vanquished enemy in rome during his triumphal gala parade.
so simon gets chained and brought to titus in caesarea on the sea a town on the coast of palestine.
just like in the acts of the apostles simon peter gets arrested and chained and in a separate episode ends up in caesarea...
so poor patriot simon bar ghiora ends up in rome and gets paraded in the triumphalis pompa amongst 700 other prisoners - a veritable via crucis without cross - and then those bastards tie a rope around his neck and drag him like an animal along the last bit "among abuse and beatings" - sounds familiar from jesus' arrest in the gospels?...-to the tullianum death chamber near the forum where they put him to death.
and pious christian lore has it that saint peter came to rome was arrested and thrown into the tullianum prison - only variation being his having been crucified upside down instead of the customary strangling in the tullianum reserved for enemy chiefs such as vercingetorix jugurtha and the like.
and even the strange position of peter's alleged crucifiction comes from flavius josephus bellum iudaicum V,11,1 "prompted by hatred and ire the roman soldiers amused themselves by crucifying prisoners in various positions"...
that's why i'm saying that the gospel mosaicists dissected simon bar ghiora and used some parts of his story for their jesus and others for their peter on whom see my peter essay quoted above.

are you convinced my fellow truth-seekers?
not yet?
wondering if the real jerusalem jesus,that is simon,had his own judas the traitor?
there you go:
flavius josephus bellum iudaicum V,13,2:
"a fellow Judas...one of Simon's underlings" with a bunch of men tried to plot against Simon and call in the romans but Simon discovered the plot captured judas and his traitors killed them and mutilated their corpses - fossile of this is gospel peter cutting off the high priest's servant's ear - and cast them down the city walls.


JESUS BEN ANANUS

one last piece of the jesus lie puzzle in the canonic gospels is a minor character from flavius joseph's jewish war a fellow jesus ben ananus who for some 7 years before the outbreak of the 66-73 war wandered around jerusalem obsessively repeating "woe to you jerusalem" in prediction of its impending fall - just like gospel jesus is portrayed after-the-fact as predicting that not a stone will be left of jerusalem's temple etc.



thanx for listening.
next time they forge a religion for us,let's try and not wait another 2000 years to call their cards...

christianity is over:
amen.



ALETES DECEMBER 13, 2005

also read:
1. aletes
the nazareth lie
http://utah.indymedia.org/news/2005/12/12632.php
2. robert h eisenman
james the brother of jesus
volume 1
faber and faber 1997
3. aletes
"saint peter" is just fiction
http://utah.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/11763.php

ALETES DECEMBER 13, 2005

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Comments
Re: gospel jesus never was 12.13.2005 version
by Me
(No verified email address) 13 Dec 2005
This is total Bullshit, without a shred of scholarly credibility.



WHY IS IS BULLSHIT ASSHOLE?
YOU ARE THE ASSHOLE WITHOUT A SHRED OF SCHOLARLY CREDIBILITY!!!

BECAUSE YOU DO NOT PROVIDE A SHRED OF COUNTERARGUMENT TO THE ARTICLE ONLY BACKFIRING SPAM YOU MOTHERFUCKIN' CLERICOFASCIST TROLL INFILTRATED INTO BOSTON INDY WITH PASSWORD TO SABOTAGE CRITICAL THINKING 24/7!!!

GET CANCER AND DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


the post was hidden ALTHOUGH IT WAS NO DUPLICATE AT ALL IN THAT ITS PRIOR POSTINGS STARTING WITH THE ORIGINAL ONE HAD BEEN HIDDEN IMMEDIATELY THEREFORE YOU CAN'T DUPLICATE WHAT'S HIDDEN AND NOBODY COULD SEE.
AND NOTICE HOW THESE BASTARD ZIONAZIS WHO LORD IT OVER INDY WITH PASSWORD DID NOT EXPLAIN WHY THIS POST WAS" "DISRUPTIVE"...BUT THEN AGAIN THEY ARE PAID TO TROLL INDY 24/7 TO DELETE EVERY POST THAT THREATENS THE CHRISTOZIONAZI/WALL STREET ESTABLISHEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!