US Indymedia Global Indymedia Publish About us
Printed from Boston IMC : http://boston.indymedia.org/
Boston.Indymedia
IVAW Winter Soldier

Winter Soldier
Testimonies
Brad Presente

Other Local News

Spare Change News
Open Media Boston
Somerville Voices
Cradle of Liberty
The Sword and Shield

Local Radio Shows

WMBR 88.1 FM
What's Left
WEDS at 8:00 pm
Local Edition
FRI (alt) at 5:30 pm

WMFO 91.5 FM
Socialist Alternative
SUN 11:00 am

WZBC 90.3 FM
Sounds of Dissent
SAT at 11:00 am
Truth and Justice Radio
SUN at 6:00 am

Create account Log in
Comment on this article | View comments | Email this article | Printer-friendly version
Commentary :: Organizing
I dont understand. What is you people WANT anyway?
08 Aug 2004
So we all understand that most of you are "ANTI" (fill in the cause/person). What are you trying to accomplish?
Okay, I came here and started reading some of your articles, and on your front page you have pictures and articles from your portest of the DNC. I interpret that as meaning you are AGAINST the Democrats. I have also been reading about your planned protests of the RNC as well. I interpret that as meaning you are also AGAINST the Republicans. Does that make any sense?

This country is running on a two-party system. I basically ignore the whole anarchy thing because its simply too ridiculous to consider. I mean, trying to make an argument for anarchy is like a bird who, after being hatched and raised in a nest high atop a tree, decided that the tree is bad, and attempts all other birds (with similar twisted thoughts) to destroy trees. You cannot build anarchy upon order. You can only create anarchy by DESTROYING order. It is not going to happen in America. It is already happening in Iraq and third world countries. Even the most primitive tribes in Africa have order in their villages.

Back to your goals. What IS it you want to see take place? I suspect that the whole "activist community" has turned into a fad which is somehow perceived as "cool". All of the other things which took place in the 1960s have come back in the 2000's in a different form (kinda). The clothes, the phrases, the colors and the drugs (but unfortunately, not the music!). Unfortunately, todays activist community has no real cause to rally. There is nothing similar to the Vietnam War, despite the mistaken identification of what's going on in Iraq as being "today's Vietnam". Our leaders are doing their jobs, despite the fact that otrhers must suffer. War has a winner and a loser. Which do you want to be?

I am reminded of the woman who was an animal rights activist supporting the preservation of the habitat of Lions in the Serengeti. She protested in the streets, organized a collective, and had all manner of lion memorabilia and photo collections. She marched the zoo for immediate release of the "poor lions". Then she finally went to Africa and travelled to the Serengeti herself. Upon seeing a lioness and her cubs, she approached the lions and.....she got attacked and eaten by the lioness who then fed her flesh to her cubs. There is a lesson in there.

We are Americans, and we are not perfect. We are NOT the bad guy, but there HAS to be a bad guy for there to be a good guy. Its Yin and Yang. The two trays of the balance. There is ALWAYS going to be a President, and that President MUST come from one of the major political parties (I will include the Independents and the Greens along with the Dems and the GOP). No American who has reached at least the lower middle class is ever going to vote for a long-haired, bandana wearing, scruffy, multi-pierced person on a Presidential ballot. So I have to conclude that you people must be simply "WEARING" your activism like you wear clothes. It may seem "cool", but its not very productive, and it certainly is not taken seriously.

I do appreciate the fact that you have an organized cyber community where you can print this stuff. Even if I dont find it very relevant to serious politics, I do find it interesting reading.

This work is in the public domain
Add a quick comment
Title
Your name Your email

Comment

Text Format
Anti-spam Enter the following number into the box:
To add more detailed comments, or to upload files, see the full comment form.

Comments

They are all for revolution and anarchy...
08 Aug 2004
and when they get revolution and anarchy they do not like they delete it or hide it.

If you like interesting reading, then read what IMC hides!

Indypendant my ass!!!!!!!!
Re: I dont understand. What is you people WANT anyway?
08 Aug 2004
Asking what "we" want probably isn't the best way to phrase your question, since the folks who contribute to this website have a number of different perspectives. And I suspect you share a common misconception of anarchism being the advocacy of chaos. It's not--it's the advocacy of a society based on such principles as direct democracy, opposition to all forms of opression, community, economic democracy, etc. The term "anarchy" comes from the Greek and it means "without rulers". As one person I heard speak once put it, anarchy means "no rulers" not "no rules".

In any case, you might want to check out the FAQ I wrote for the DNC protests (http://boston.indymedia.org/mod/info/display/dnc_faq/index.php ), in which I try to summarize a number of different groups perspectives on the DNC protests. It's not particularly in-depth, but I think it will give you a basic answer to some of your questions.
Re: I dont understand. What is you people WANT anyway?
08 Aug 2004
Well, first off, there's nothing sacred about our "two-party" system. It wasn't written into the Constitution; it's an artifact of a system designed by people who were dead set against the dangers of "faction" but didn't have organized political parties to use as examples in designing their system of safeguards- because the modern type of political party wouldn't evolve until the next century.

Second, assuming that opposition to aspects of one party's platform, influences or behavior contradicts opposition to the beliefs or behavior of the other party is a fallacy based on the assumption that there are only two possible (and opposite) alternatives. IIRC this is called "false dichotomy" or "excluded middle" in taxonomies fo the logical fallacies.

Finally, you might find the political philosophy of the late Admiral Daniel V. Gallery, as expressed in his autobiography "Eight Bells" interesting:

"I'm agin the gummint whoever is running it."
I Want?
09 Aug 2004
Peace. Solar Power. Wave Turbine Power. Alternative Power. Get FAR away from oil. Homeless? Homed. Medical coverage for all. Honest Politicians. Corporations BANNED from all Federal Employee's.
That's what I want.
Re: I dont understand. What is you people WANT anyway?
09 Aug 2004
In addition to that I want a way to live that doesn't destroy the planet. Don't take this lightly; I actually mean the destruction of our planet, not just a species going extict. How about stock holders being accountable for what the company does, a little corporate accountability? I don't just advocate no Kerry or no Bush, but for politicians (and everyone else) to be honest, accountable, and representative of the people that elected them. Also I would like to see everyone more involved, whether that means attending a rally against nuclear waste or by organizing a group to clean up litter by their town hall. Action doesn't have to be at a huge rally on a national level. It should be in your hometown as well. Things like the JP Free Skool.
Re: I dont understand. What is you people WANT anyway?
09 Aug 2004
Anarchy is NOT chaos. You need to do a little reading to educate yourself as to what Anarchy actually is. The quick definition as found in Webster's is:

a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups

What do we want?

What some of us want is an end to the oppression of the working class. We want an end to a representative government that represents only corporations and special interests. Some of us want a society that embraces the philosophy "From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs".

You couldn't be more misinformed about the activist community either. For the most part these are people very well read on their ideologies and are willing to protest to have their voices heard.

As far as Iraq not being "a Vietnam", I would say there are more similarities than differences.

Vietnam "invaded" by the U.S. under the false pretences of the "Gulf of Tonkin incident"

Iraq invaded by the U.S. under the false pretences of WMD's

The insurgents in Iraq fighting a guerilla war to expel the occupation forces

Vietcong fighting a guerilla war to expel occupation forces.

A puppet leader (Diem)put into power by the U.S.
in Vietnam

A puppet leader and CIA asset (Allawi)put into power by the U.S. in Iraq

The "stay the course" mentality in Iraq similar to the Nixon "Peace with honor"

The war and occupation are illegal. We invaded a sovereign nation that had no ability (or history)to attack U.S. soil. Iraq is about oil, like Vietnam was about tungsten and rubber.

Like the Vietnam war, the Iraq War is opposed/condemned by most countries of the world.

How many more similarities do you need?

Just for your edification, stating that no one at "least in the lower middle class" will vote for an alternative candidate, I would suggest you look into some of the campaigns of Eugene Debs. Debs got almost 1 million votes in 1912 running as a socialist even while incarcerated in prison. Debs was taken seriously enough that he was put in prison for being a socialist and for offering an alternative to big money politics. Also look up W.E.B. Dubois while your at it.
WOW! When I wrote the lead article, I didnt think it would get such a response
09 Aug 2004
First, to "Commie Bastard", you need to do a LOT more reading and get some life experience before you try to tackle this issue. Your definition of Anarchy did NOT come from Websters. The Websters definition is:

An·ar·chy
Pronunciation: 'a-n&r-kE, -"när-
Function: noun
Etymology: Medieval Latin anarchia, from Greek, from anarchos having no ruler, from an- + archos ruler -- more at ARCH-
1 a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
2 a : absence or denial of any authority or established order b : absence of order : DISORDER
3 : ANARCHISM

The working class is not being "oppressed" at all. Most of the members of that class are there because they either didnt get an education, or lived in a depressed area (but that is no excuse because there are assistance programs and allowances for the disadvantaged), or were just plain too stupid to make long-range plans for their lives. I would hardly call that "oppression". Most want to move into the upper classes, NOT to eliminate government altogether or change it into some communist/socialist government.

What I see as common among you activist groups is long hair, scruffy appearance, tattoos, drugs, disregard for authority (hence multiple arrests and reduction of employability as a result). Activists make poor decisions. Instead of organizing themselves into a lobby group and using the only acknowledged method: THE VOTE to bring about change, they instead choose to make signs and yell chants in front of riot gear clad police in the streets. What do you expect that to accomplish? Do you expect the President to simply drop his itenerary, hold his calls and then rush into his office and declare a holiday?

No, today's activism is nothing but a "club", and its members are comprised of the young and disenfranchised, drug users and the children of the wealthy who have nothing better to do, and want to appear "cool". Meanwhile, real change is being made by groups who organize, lobby, and vote as a bloc. They make long range plans and vote the elements of their goal into existence. within 5 or 10 years, they are a force to contend with. You loud and foolish activists can be swept away by a fire hose or a line of police armed with pepper spray. Its really hard to have sympathy for you when you look so ridiculous with your bandanas and flag burning antics.

The rest of your post deals with occupations and exploitation of resources in other countries. SO WHAT? Somebody is going to exploit them, so why not us? Reality dictates a PRACTICAL approach to government, not an impractical and unlikely "utopian dream" government which can never materialize. Then your last statement:

-"Just for your edification, stating that no one at "least in the lower middle class" will vote for an alternative candidate, I would suggest you look into some of the campaigns of Eugene Debs. Debs got almost 1 million votes in 1912 running as a socialist even while incarcerated in prison. Debs was taken seriously enough that he was put in prison for being a socialist and for offering an alternative to big money politics. Also look up W.E.B. Dubois while your at it.-"


You call 1 million votes "contention for the Presidency"? I never said that Americans will never vote for an "alternative" President. My description of that "alternative" President was very specific. Look at your activist friends, and you will have an idea. Jeans-wearing, long hair, scruffy appearance, earrings, tattoos (my description of the 'average' activist).

The smartest activists are those whose activism is restricted to the polls and letter writing campaigns. Those who do not get arrested in trying accomplish their goals. Conspiracy theories and military occupations notwithstanding, the United States is the best country on Earth. One of the freedoms you have by being one of her citizens is to be able to freely LEAVE THE COUNTRY.
We want freedom!
10 Aug 2004
I dont know that you want to really understand do you friend?
Thats some tall tale about the Serengeti trip.....

Sorry my crap detector was flickering all over the place i thought i would check that out first before i tried to write anything that you may or may not read.

First off ,before you give anyone on this site beratings to read and educate themselves more you need to use some logic in your thought.

You cant make a generalization and say "you ANTI - people" . That makes no sense. Like any group of people; many people means many ideas.

Again i will repeat that you sir dont know anything about anarchist movements of the past and present. Anarchism was a huge social movement in the 1900's late 1800's and is growing today. Did you know that the russian revolution was largely fueled by anarchistic revolutionists?

Did you know that in spain in 1936 a succsesful revolution germinated and would have gone much further if it hadnt been for the nazi backed fascist coup and subsequent civil war. Americans went to fight fascism then, they were known as the Lincon Brigades. Check out www.infoshop.org Read the anarchist FAQ
Go to your local library. Find the writtings of Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, Errico Malatesta, Peter Kropotkin , Mikahl Bakunin, Read of the Haymarket martyrs, Albert Parsons, August Spies. How about the anarchistic if not down right anarchist. Thoreau , the molly maguires, the brave men of shays rebellion.

Do you live in boston? Go check out the Lucy Parsons Center. Just google it. Youll find directions. Go read about who Lucy was, what she did. The people she helped.

That is what the anarchist movement in the area wants the same as the Lincon brigades. Freedom, equality, justice!

Of course many are not anarchists. Thats okay . Many progressives want rather simple things. A moving away from the gigantic millitarism of our nation state, and its corporations that dominate our lives. Honestly i dont think most people realize the extent that millitarism fuels our society. We spend so much on war and domination around the world that working people in our country suffer immensly.

How about a move towards renewable energies.
Funding of schools. Money for our communities , workers rights and control of our lives, control over police forces in our localities. The end to corporate personhood that allows endless abuses to go on. Seriously there are so many many things that progressive people are for in general that it seems rather ridiculous that you cant see what we are for...



And i know that you have never fucking been poor by your ignorant assholish comments , that the poor are poor by their own fault. Thats bullshit.

If your family is born with inheritence in life than it is obviously a lot easier for you in life no? How many for so long have been trying to pull themselves up by their boot straps only to find themselves on their asses? It doesnt work very well to grab your own rotting shoes to get ahead. You need a hand.

Working people are oppressed in shades of oppression every day. On the job you are disrepsected by some tool spoiled prick . You make all the money for the boss and he gives you a little bit back. Then you buy shit that you and other workers make with that pitence you were given for enriching someone else..

Yah great plan, i want to live that for the rest of my life or fuck over some other person. Thats a great aspiration...
How about together we make a world worth fucking living in huh?
Ill do it with you and im sure the rest of our friends would get down too.

And seriously you sound rather silly and petty talking down on people individual fashion statements. Who cares. That is so minor and shallow. The asthetics of corporate world is brilliant and joyful right......
Yah go drab offices devoid of human happiness!

Saying there will allways be a president is like saying there will ALLWAYS BE A KING! NO way its not going to happen. Its impossible , crazy, there would be chaos. Yah cant get there and your not doing it right and those breaches you are wearing are down right silly and no one will talk to you.

Political parties come and go, as soon as the dual party domination of this countries political system ends the sooner some real democracy can breath. A parlimentary system makes so much more sense. The rest of the "democratic" world runs on these parlimenatry systems.
"First off ,before you give anyone on this site beratings to read and educate themselves more you need to use some logic in your thought."
10 Aug 2004
"First off ,before you give anyone on this site beratings to read and educate themselves more you need to use some logic in your thought."


I did. Apparently you did not. The story of the activist in the Serengeti may not be accurate, since I heard it from a friend who may not have gotten it from a reliable source. Even as a parable, it still applies. Go over to Iraq to "save the poor victims" and you will likely be kidnapped and held in front of fuzzy video cameras while demands are read off by hooded Muslims who threaten to cut your head off. You get the idea. Your "movements" are pathetically ineffective, and accomplish nothing at all.

Then, you blurted this one out:

"Again i will repeat that you sir dont know anything about anarchist movements of the past and present. Anarchism was a huge social movement in the 1900's late 1800's and is growing today. Did you know that the russian revolution was largely fueled by anarchistic revolutionists?"

RESPONSE:

I dont really have to know very much about any ridiculous anarchist movements, since all have failed. Anarchy is against nature. Humans and animals, and even minerals and molecules organize into heirarchial structures: strong to weak. This is Nature, this is Physics. The reality of order cannot be escaped or overwritten by the unnatural state of anarchy. Then you use the Russian Revolution to bolster your point? Talk about using some logic in my thought! Where are the Russians today? What happened to their "revolution"??? It too failed, and not Russia is following the template of Democracy cast by the United States (as most countries aspiring to greatness do). Logic indeed.

MORE OF YOUR STATEMENTS:

"Saying there will allways be a president is like saying there will ALLWAYS BE A KING! NO way its not going to happen. Its impossible , crazy, there would be chaos. Yah cant get there and your not doing it right and those breaches you are wearing are down right silly and no one will talk to you."

RESPONSE:

There is a place you should visit sometime. Its called REALITY. Yes, there will ALWAYS be a King, President, Premier, Commandant, whatever we call LEADERS these days. Its built into our genes, its built into our social behavior as primates, and its passed down by our ancestors and passed on to our children. Its fundamental to human nature, and no matter what drug you take, that is not going to change anytime in your lifetime (or your children's lifetimes).

Unfortunately for you, there are also standards by which our leaders must adhere. One of them is personal appearance, grooming, speech and mastery of his/her language. This is true in America as well as all other industrialized nations. I dont particularly feel comfortable in suits and ties, and I would kick the person who invented it (and made it tradition) in the nuts if I met him. But I also recognize the absolute REQUIREMENT of understanding and respecting time honored traditions such as the business suit. Corporate America has little need for colorfiul distractions at work or in any business environment, except those which are high stress.

Tell us, how old are you? Your response seems like that of a teenager or a very young person who does not yet have to work for a living or pay taxes. Perhaps you can find a job where you can wear your ponytail, your earrings and tattoos openly, and where you can wear shorts or baggy jeans and a t-shirt. Somewhere in the mix will be a hamburger grill or a french fry fryer, I can guarantee you that. Go to chool and "waste" your time there. 10 years from now, you can reap the rewards of that "wasted" time and come back here and talk to the others about the "evils" of wealth and success. You cant possibly understand where Im coming from. Then again, this is the Land of the Free. You are free to fuck up if you want to. Youll get no problems from me!