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News :: Politics
Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
04 Nov 2004
With the partially dismantled scaffolding for Kerry’s election-night rally still dominating the steps of the library in Copley Square, Boston activists gathered there at 5:00 to vent their frustration with the outcome of the election and the state of the country in general. Although the intention was to gather in the park, the police immediately chased people away, telling them that needed to a permit, and directing them to the sidewalks across the street. Approximately 70 people gathered on the other three corners of Boylston and Dartmouth Streets. Police arrested one person, apparently because he was climbing the scaffolding left over from the Kerry rally. Many of the people I spoke to expressed their frustration with the results of the election. People also generally seemed uncertain about how the left should move forward. Nonetheless, people also clung fiercely to hope, with young one woman handing out daisies to symbolize this.
Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
By Matthew Williams

With the partially dismantled scaffolding for Kerry’s election-night rally still dominating the steps of the library in Copley Square, Boston activists gathered there at 5:00 to vent their frustration with the outcome of the election and the state of the country in general. Although the intention was to gather in the park, the police immediately chased people away, telling them that needed to a permit, and directing them to the sidewalks across the street. Approximately 70 people gathered on the other three corners of Boylston and Dartmouth Streets. Police arrested one person, apparently because he was climbing the scaffolding left over from the Kerry rally. Many of the people I spoke to expressed their frustration with the results of the election. People also generally seemed uncertain about how the left should move forward. Nonetheless, people also clung fiercely to hope, with young one woman handing out daisies to symbolize this.

Nicole Levitz said she was out because, “First and foremost, I just needed an excuse to scream. I wanted to get out on the street and let people know we are upset.”

Several people expressed their embarrassment before the rest of the world at the results of the election. Amy Beth Dimasi said that she had come out, “because Bush was not elected the first time. The fact that he’s going to be in office another four years . . . Right now, it’s humiliating to be considered an American. People will look back and we’ll be considered like the slave-owners before the Civil War.”

A young anarchist named Jordan listed some of the insanities of the Bush administration that had brought him out: “In a record time, we’ve fought two wars. Lots of people are dying. They’re trying to take Section 8 housing assistance away from people who need it. The Bush administration’s secretary of labor was described by John Sweeney, president of the AFL-CIO, as the most anti-union person he’s met in twenty years of organizing. Our civil liberties are being eroded by things like the PATRIOT Act. I walked with the DNC to RNC march. We were followed the whole time by the FBI. We were essentially a bunch of kids--it was ridiculous.”

One man (who asked to remain anonymous) told a particularly disheartening story of a moderate liberal co-worker of his who had been active in the pro-Kerry voter turn-out drives in New Hampshire. “I said that we shouldn’t be at work at all, but should be out having a strike. The liberal guy thought we couldn’t do anything about it for four years--this is democracy and you have to accept the results and be quiet.”

The rally started off the members of the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP) dominating it, shouting strident, revolutionary rhetoric and calls to buy their newspaper over a bullhorn. International ANSWER, a Marxist-Leninist group whose domineering organizing tactics have alienated many other activists, set up shop with their banners and mass-produced signs on another corner. Most people--a mixture of liberals and anarchists--gathered on the third available corner. Some squatted on the ground, creating their own signs with markers and posterpaper, with words such as, “Four years to fascism” and “The system doesn’t work”. The RCP and ANSWER eventually abandoned their corners (the RCP after the police made them stop using the bullhorn) to merge with the larger group. There was a little tension as some of the anarchists heckled ANSWER, but the gathering soon grew more festive. Some chanting and drumming started and people began running across the crosswalk in front of cars, holding up their signs. A surprising number of passing cars honked in support. Many anarchists made clear that they did not simply oppose Bush, but the whole system in general, with signs such as, “Whoever you vote for, the government wins.”

Despite people’s frustration and discouragement, they still looked for ways to cling to hope. Jordan said, “I’ve been thinking that if people are oppressed enough, they’ll rise up,” adding more pessimistically, “or we’ll have some catastrophe. Someone’s going to press the button and we’ll have a nuclear strike.”

Dimasi argued that, “Bush will be impeached for the thousands of mistakes he’ll make. And then we need to get someone into office who will support human rights, women’s rights, freedom of speech, who isn’t going to go to war again.” Asked why she thought it would be likely that Bush will be impeached, she explained, “Bush has made so many mistakes--it’s only a matter of time before people realize that he’s destroying every aspect of our country. My fear is that by that time, we won’t legally be able to speak out against the president.”

Levitz, the young woman who was passing out daisies for hope, said simply, “I have hope in the future, in its elusiveness and its possibility. People are here, so it means something.”

****

(I left around 6:00. Feel free to mention anything important that happened after I left in the comments.)

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Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
04 Nov 2004
Nice article Matt. Good for you for attending, though from what you described I can think of some other places that sound like I would have had more fun attending like... the alzheimers unit of a poorly run nursing home or a Bosnian orphanage. Mabye I'm exaggerating a little but I do know that with dismal feeling of anger/sadness/hopelessness that plauged me this afternoon the last people I would want to be around are annoying Communists from the authoritarian-left. Also Matt when "Dimasi" gave her answer to why she thinks Bush will be impeached I hope you didn't crush her last glimmer of ill-informed and naive optimism by pointing out that on top of everything else the GOP gained even my control of the House & Senate meaning Bush would have to do something so overtly wrong like kill a puppy on live tv or something before impeachment could come into play.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
04 Nov 2004
As the shock of Dubya's relection dissapates ( undoubtedly this will take longer for the ABB crowd - Mike Moore may need a period of cardiac rehab ) anti-war and anti-globalization activists cities and towns across the country are beginning to talk about the need to mount the most militant, powerful counter-inaugural protests possible, with the intent of completely derailing the coronation ceromonies in January .

Such an convergence - rather than the usual ANSWER permitted march and rally scenario - could inspire a sustained national effort to raise the social and material economic costs to our rulers for pursuing the Bush agenda -- and make the country ungovernable...if we have the courage and determination to see it through. At the very least, we can force Bush and Ascroft et al to completely militarize the nation's capital, and project a powerful image of resistance from the heart of the Empire.

Resistance is fertile.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
04 Nov 2004
What an incredible election!. After months of the radical left trying to discredit President Bush with outrageous charges of AWOL and most recently, lost weapons in Iraq (they were destroyed by US troops), the President prevailed. This represents a rejection of the policies and ideology of the radical left represented by such people as Michael Moore. It also represents a rejection of such people as Kofi Annan, who actively tried to discredit President Bush. Perhaps the most satisfying part of this is the slap in the face that the American people gave to France, Germany and Spain. This is an incredibly great moment for America!!
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
04 Nov 2004
The RCP and ANSWER were annoying, but after enough people showed up (and the police told them they couldn't use the bullhorn), they really weren't dominating the scene. It seemed like a good place for peeople to vent their frustrations at the shere stupidity of everything happening in the corridors of power now.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
04 Nov 2004
This article neglected to mention the awesome breakaway march that anarchists made down Newberry street. We took the streets, walking behind a massive banner with No More Presidents scrawled on it, and the symbols for anarchy, equality, peace, and antifascism underneath.

Between 30 and 40 kids marched, chanting revolutionary messages at the yuppie corporate stores (1234: this is a class war, 5678: organize and smash the state) as we made an eight block march. We blocked traffic the whole way, and the cops merely followed us, wondering what we were going to do next. People pressed against their store windows and came out to see what the ruckus was.

A great time was had by all, and it was much more fun than the stupid ANSWER rally, which was made stupid not only because of the tiny numbers present (with a total of probably 70 people including anarchists) and just standing on a street corner, but because of the total disunity between the anarchists and the ANSWER folk. Well, mostly the anarchists. Chanting anti-ANSWER messages was more popular than the anti-Bush ones, and there's something fucked up about that.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
04 Nov 2004
so i know rcp and answer folks tend to be way on the obnoxious and dominating side and anarchists tend to take a very righteous attitude towards this but without even examining our own dominating behaviour. i mean i expected to see hundreds of people gathered in copley protesting bush and not just the same folk who usually make up the rallies. if it was mainly rcp, answer and anarchists there, what are we doing any differently from them to engage people more. i feel shouting ''smash the state'' seems to appease more to the ego than to inspire those around us. not to ber critical because i am glad people were there but i feel if we are quick tobe critical of those around us we should also focus some on ourselves and really break down exactly what we are trying to accomplish.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
04 Nov 2004
Yeah, Daniel. well, if you can't see that authoritarians and anti-authoritarians have nothing in common, then there's something fucked up about that.

In fact, even as insane as George Bush and his neo-Con handlers are, they have not actually reached the levels of murderous evil of Stalin or even Mao. The very idea that you wuld think that anarchists should not be At LEAST as strident against the supporters of a mass-murderer who killed 25 million as against a man who has killed less than the darling of the Democrats, Bill Clinto, is completely fucked up.

This facile, "why can't we all get along" sort of political sloppiness has many historical precents. We are not the first generation ever who has had to listen to idiots cry "United Front now!" It has happened over and over and over again, and every time we anti-authoritarians have been stupid enough to fall into that trap, we are among the first to be drug into the killing fields. So, forgive me if I don't find your naivete to be endearing; this lesson has been written in anarchist blood too often already. To every cry of "United Front!" we must respond clearly to ourselves and to our would-be betrayers "Never again!"

This is what it comes down to, Daniel. These people with whom you think we should be more friendly than the Republicans killed over twice as many people in acts of mass murder than did Adolph Hitler.

Whenever you find yourself wondering about the correct course of action with respect to Stalinsts, Maoists, or other authoritarian mass-murdering scum, just ask yourself "What would I be willing to do in the situation if they were slightly less evil, slightly less mass-murdering fucks, like say, members of the Nazi party?" Replace your little lament with the appropriate terms and voila:

"Chanting anti-Nazi messages was more popular than the anti-Bush ones, and there's something fucked up about that."

Now, see how stupid that sounds? And the Nazis killed HALF as many people as the Stalinists like ANSWER alone, never mind the Maoists like RCP!
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
04 Nov 2004
The break away march probably happened after I left. Like I said at the end, I took off at 6:00--I wanted to write up this article and get to bed in a timely fashion since I had to get up early to teach. Thanks for letting us know about the break-away march.

From posts to the US IMC, it looks like there much larger day-after protests in other cities. I suspect what kept things so small in Boston is that the post-election protest was called by ANSWER. As I said in my article, lots of people--including many long time Boston organizers--don't like them. Aside from the fact that I find their beliefs to be screwed up, there is the much more concrete thing of the way they organize--their constant attempts to take over other people's protests and coalitions have alienated lots of people. It's worth noting that there are non-sectarian Marxist-Leninists out there and--although Anti-Scum raises some important issues about the bloody record of their heros--I have not found working with to be a problem in practical terms. It's the sectarianism that's the big problem--not being willing to work as equals with other groups because you are convinced you have the truth (kind of reminds me of the Bush administration). Leninists don't have a strangle-hold on sectarianism; although it's less common, you can find it among some anarchists as well. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a good way to address the problem of sectarianism. Although I undertsood why people were heckling ANSWER, it doesn't really help in any way.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
05 Nov 2004
thanks for covering this! Also noteable is that the breakaway march had minimal police interference until a paddywagon drove into our crowd halfway back down boylston. we ended up marching back around it undisturbed back to where the rally had originated, then played an awesome game of "anarchist anarchist cop" in the park at copley.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
05 Nov 2004
It's about time somebody started up a group in this town that could mobilize people like UFPJ or like ANSWER used to do. I agree that ANSWER has some truly messed up beliefs, but I don't think yelling at them really helps the anarchist cause at all. Really it just takes it down to a schoolyard, name calling level. Then again, people have to distinguish themselves from them somehow, and they do hijack so many movements. (The latest of which is US out of Haiti, which really is sad)

I think the thing to do is out organize them and drown out their voices. Honestly, I haven't seen any Boston Anarchists reaching out to individuals in an effective way aside from a few college students or young folks who wonder in to the movement. Efforts to create media are there but the message is so academic that most people don't care to listen to it, or conversely so incendiary as to seem out of touch with reality.

One on one anarchists talk about organizing to help each other, eating good veggie food, and all this great DIY stuff, but out on the street they yell and scream as if every bystander was their enemy. This is no way to counter the mass media's image of anarchists!

Can we all turn around and welcome in strangers? Can we befriend a person in a business suit or yuppie attire? Can we reach out to people in ALL communities to explain our ideas? I know very few who do.

Often times Boston's anarchist community appears like a scene than a movement, replete with exclusivity and uniform fashion sense.

What's up with that??
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
05 Nov 2004
The nov 3 Copley demo was also announced by UJP. Here's the call from the google cache of www.justicewithpeace.org. There seemed to be a few demonstrators from UJP and progressive/liberal organizations. The call's language about "fairly resolved" seems like an unfortunate choice of words, unless you think the spectacle started out fair and got ugly later.

--------- here's the UJP call for the NOV 3 demo ------



Wed., Nov 3rd COPLEY SQ 5:30 PM
"No Stolen Elections" Rally

If the election results are in doubt, gather at Copley Square, at the corner of Boylston and Dartmouth Streets, at 5:30 PM on Wednesday Nov 3rd for a Silent Vigil (Silent Prayer for Democracy). This vigil will be continued every Wednesday until the situation is fairly resolved.

Sign on to the November 3rd Pledge of Action: No Stolen Election at
http://www.nov3.us
Click on ’more’ for fuller information.
For more information, visit http://www.nov3.us.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
05 Nov 2004
Well since the election results werent in doubt by that time it isnt surprising that noone showed up... Why didn't they make a call for "whoever wins" like the rest of the groups around the country?
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
05 Nov 2004
I think that the protests around Boston dont have large numbers because they dont really have an audience. I think 3/4s of the people here know that Bush sucks, so there is no real motivation to try to preach to them. I think if we have a real issue to stand up for, the the crowd will be stronger, an example is the marches before the Iraq invasion
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
05 Nov 2004
hmmm... Whereas ANSWER has a history and back-door support of authoritarianism, I have yet to see this history or support manifest itself in public (This might be considered even more insidious, however). I hear your points, but I also know that some of the "ANSWER" folk holding signs were just first-timers who were sick of Bush, showed up to protest and found a sign on the ground. Chanting anti-Bush slogans was their order, and the authoritarian ideology behind the group who made their sign was not praised. What I am trying to say is that they weren't yelling Go Stalin! or even Anarchists Have Got To Go!, so why did we retaliate?

Whereas, the anarchists ended up looking like a bunch of reactionary anti-protestors. Instead of attacking another group, the anarchists (dare I say we) would have done well to add our own chants to the mix, and forgotten about the heckling. At one point I tried to do this (changing our sides' chanting from "Stalinists have got to go" to "Government has got to go").
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
05 Nov 2004
That's a good point there from Daniel, it does look cbad to the passerby f there is two groups yelling at each other instead of united against one cause. Many people still don't know about ANSWER, anarchists or any radical group really. So all they see is a mess.

But instead of joining with them we need to organize better than them. THey had signs, a bullhorn, a book table, literature and a newspaper to hand out, and more. What did anarchists bring, aside from signs?

Indymedia is trying to start up a paper and needs volunteer and $$ support, Lucy Parsons has the books (and needs the moey) and LPC folks were there, and I know people out there have connections for photocopying. We can only blame momentary laziness for not totally outdoing them. Indymedia and Lucy Parsons are non-sectarian groups but their facilities are available to anarchists yet anarchists arent really using them to their fullest advantage.

Somehow we need to make connections between all of us and these resources in a very organized and quick response ready way.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
06 Nov 2004
i saw something ugly going on at that protest. i saw one group of people yelling "fuck you, a.n.s.w.e.r.!!!" at anyone who was older than them or not dressed like them. when one man tried to start up a pretty non-sectarian street chant- "this is what democracy looks like"- these kids bunched up near by and shouted "this is what democracy DOESN"T look like, shut up fuckin A.N.S.W.E.R. asshole!!" one of them told me ANSWER had "knifed other groups in the back. . . " but these kids were heckling anyone, ANYONE they THOUGHT might LOOK like MAYBE they might be part of ANSWER, cause i know alot of folks, and alot of the people getting heckled are neither answer folks nor authoritarian communists. they just weren't younger than 25 and didn't happen to be wearing cool enuf cloths. . .. .

it was indeed obnoxious that there was someone with a bullhorn postulating that "only communist revolution" was going to solve anything. thats obnoxious and messed up. but then again, they guy with the horn was letting anyone who wanted to use his horn and say what THEY thought we oughta do. i saw him do it. ANYONE coulda brought a bullhorn along if they wanted. ANYONE could have organized that rally. but i suppose its easier and more fun to just show up and yell FUCK YOU at everyone you dont' like the look of, huh? just like a right wing christian town i use-ta visit as a kid- and get removed from every time i went. same disgusting behavior. high school level bullshit.

and lets not forget-- when someone DID get thrown to the ground by cops and arrested(i saw this whole thing, folks, not makin it up) it was some of the older women who were *getting heckled* who went and dealt with the police and tried to get the kid off the hook and so forth. NOT the kids skipping around trying to make shit for everybody.

up until this recent rash of juvenalia, i've seen countless efforts in this city where many very different groups were able to work together despite their differences. . .. and these fucking kids are destorying ALL of that. i saw them treating everyone who wasn;t in their little club like crap at the DNC, too, all week. and its sad, cause some of them seem smart and committed and serious about changing shit. . . .its just UGLY is what it is. i don't get it.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
06 Nov 2004
oh and my email is my name(katt) and its at riseup which is a net. .. .if anyone in that group is grown up enough to try and have dialouge without calling me a "fucking answer asshole" or a "cop" or "non-affiliated" or whatever all else i've seen people who did nothing more than be a little older and dressed down get accused of these last several months. GOD.. . . . i really will try and calm down and be respectful and listen, if you want to dialouge-- cause i wanna SOLVE this problem before it SOLVES the whole boston activist community to BITS and PIECES. . .
Yep
07 Nov 2004
Once more confirms that "anarchism" always ends up accomodating itself to the bourgeois dictatorship. Anarchism = Democratic party reformism - 2 years.

When will they ever learn?
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
08 Nov 2004
"Chanting anti-ANSWER messages was more popular than the anti-Bush ones, and there's something fucked up about that."


That is no surprise. I go to protests to do that exclusively. In fact, anyone advocating communist revolution probably deserves more than being yelled at.

My naturally good looks and strong command of the english language, along with my all american sense of humor (shadenfreude) are enough to break the spirits of any goober at the protests, and besides, its good fuel for my magazine.

One must recognize that the core function of Boston and Bostonians is to keep one another down. Once that is realized all activity in the region can be enjoyed in the proper perspective.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
08 Nov 2004
Katt -

Straight up. Number 1. You're delusional. I was one of the oldest people there and I'm one of those "kids" you were talking down to with your United Leftist bullshit. Number 2. Could you have been a little more ageist in that anti-ageism rant? Those "kids" weren't being ageist but you sure as fuck were.

Age has not shit to do with it. Carrying around a fucking sign that says "ANSWER" on it does. You adorn yourself with their propaganda and people are going to - rightly - assume that you are allied with them. You should get your own ageism under control before taking your paranoid rants to the public arena.

I can't believe you have the gall to talk about the DNC. Didn't you learn your lesson last time you were called out on your lies about that?
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
08 Nov 2004
Old-A, I think you're missing the point of Katt's comment--which I more or less agree with. The point is not that we should embrace sectarian groups like the RCP and ANSWER. The point is--well, think how it looks to a passer-by or even a newby activist who doesn't know anything about all the problems these groups have called. It makes the people who are doing the heckling look sectarian, and the sectarians like the victims of sectarianism. (And I was at the protest and witnessed the heckling, so I'm not just guessing what it was like.) Certainly, it would be good if we educated new activists about the problematic history, behavior and ideas of certain groups, but heckling them just makes us (the anarchists) look like jerks. That isn't really going to get us very far in building the sort of movement we want to see.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
09 Nov 2004
hey there old-a--

i am not a member of answer. never was. dont' know jack shit about them.

this is exactly what i'm talking about.

i saw tons and tons of exactly what you just did to me goign on at the dnc. i found a man bawling his eyes out on the ground behind a building after some fucking wench from the "convergence" (clique) center danced around him calling him a "fucking pig". he was in his work cloths because he was sneaking out to get to what little of the protests he could.hehas been working on all kinds of atuff in town for years. because he didn't have the "right" look, this is how he was treated. i heard from friends and aquaintences all week about being treated like garbage at the convergence center. alot of activists i know didn't show up because they thought it would be like that- they just stayed up in cambridge and somerville and medford. none of them are in answer, far as i know.

now who's fault is that- a.n.s.w.e.r.'s or the clique at the center? do we determine it by clothing? age?

when i got to the protest in copely, there was a stack of signs on the ground. someone told me that there was sectarian stuff between answer and another group, so i took one that didn't have answer on it. it said "No draft, No Way" and nodraftnoway.org. because i didn't want to contribute to sectarianism. there is not even a LINK to a.n.s.w.e.r. on their site. there appears to be no connection.

i went there as an individual, not with any group. behavior
like yours and your cohorts is making that harder and harder. its puerile, selfish, undisciplined, age-ist and cliquish. I hear complaints about it from people on a weeky basis-- young and old. and its definitely the most authoritarian thing i've seen in boston since i moved here in '97. way more authoritarian than anythign i've seen a.n.s.w.e.r. do.

i'm 30. pretty young myself. most of the peple having troubel with you and your affinity group are actualy older than me. how old are you? the oldest person i knew there was a 63 year old woman, and she got taunted by you lot.

dont' you think its a wee bit "authoriatarian" to try and stop a discussion or a rally from happening with yelling and swearing and taunting and belittling people you don't even know? isn't that one piece of the community excercising a form of forced authority over another? what on earth did a.n.s.w.e.r. do thats so terrible, anyway? i really don't know. . . . i saw them organize a rally and show up with signs and bullhorns, which they allowed anyone who asked to speak through until the cops took them away. what did YOU organize? a FUCK YOU party? and who was it for? the facists in power, or the people trying to stop them?
what does this accomplish? did a.n.s.w.e.r. say "yes, sir!" and go home when you started treating everyone in your immediate vicinity like shit? did more people get educated by you jumping up and down swearing and yelling than by the lady handing out fliers, the people with sings? did more people who've maybe just started tot hink about this stuff feel like they could come and protest with you? somehow i doubt it. angry gorillas throw their feces at the zoo cage wall- all it does is make the zoo-goers laugh at them.

now go ahead -call me a cop, like i've seen done to other people who dare to disagree with this groups' tactics. then you can justify your hainous behavior and feel like a real hero. and you'll never have to learn how to have dialouge or talk to anyone who isn't exactly like you either. how very comfortable.
To Katt
09 Nov 2004
Thank you Katt, for your voice of reason. Don't let them shout you down.

Despite what's been insinuated, I want to remind people that ANSWER is a coalition activist group; its meetings and activities are open to anyone who is opposed to war and racism! Whatever your broader political outlook -- anarchist, communist, whateverist, or don't-careist.

And yes, I am a sympathetic observer of the politics of the WWP, and proud to be a communist. So there.

Alex G.
Volunteer organizer for Providence, RI A.N.S.W.E.R.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
10 Nov 2004
Okay, fine, Katt. We can expose your lies in this forum just as we did when you lied before in other forums about the DNC. Now, mind you, you NEVER brought any of these claims to the BTS directly but slunk around talking shit about the "convergence center clique" and the DNC protests on other lists and other forums. But, then as now, your lies can be answered in this forum even though you do not have the decency to address them to the group you are attacking:

Bluntly, you claim to have witnessed things that NOONE else witnessed. Noone. Not a person. Zero people. We're willing to assume that maybe you are the most uber-observative person in the entire world and saw something as dramatic as, say, a man "bawling" or a person ("wench"? What?) "dancing" around someone in the convergence center or (from your earlier assortment of lies) that "older" people or "dressed down" people (This lie is particularly funny given the typical clothing choices of the BTS and Indymedia organizers. Perhaps we were prejudiced against ourselves?) had been not allowed in the convergence center at all or (after you were called out on that lie you changed your story to) they were not allowed to be volunteers within the convergence center and that NOONE else of those hundreds of people saw it. You and you alone, out of the hundreds of people there, saw all these incredibly dramatic things and, while you chose to say ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about them at the time to anyone and have not deigned to even approach the BTS all this while after the fact, you were deeply offended by these things that you and only you saw.

That's all so ridiculous that it strecthes the bounds of plausibility. Why did no one else see any of these things? Why did you not say anything about these things if you saw them? Why did you not bring these concerns to the BTS or Indymedia or BALM before talking shit about the convergence center in completely unrelated forums? How did you or he know that someone was "from the convergence center"? Was this person BTS, Indymedia, BALM, or some random person from out of town? And on and on. What the hell do you mean by a "clique" at the convergence center? Are you seriously suggesting that all those BALM, Indymedia and BTS folks conspired somehow to exclude you and presumably others? That all three groups who had open meetings for MONTHS prior to the event had somehow excluded you from participating even though many of them - myself included - didn't know you at all before the DNC? That you somehow knew beforehand that BALM and Indymedia and BTS were forming some sort of secret cabal against you, so you did not bother going to any of those open meetings? Please be serious.

But, fine, whatever. You, the uber-observer, seer of unseen things, claim to have seen them. Fine. So, simply, who are these people? What are there names that we might seek them out and offer our abject apologies? Or, even, shy of their names, what did they look like, where were they, what were they doing aside from your oh-so-dramatic "bawling" and/or "dancing" etc? Can you give ANY identificatory information at all? Some of these things you claim to have seen happened INSIDE the convergence center! There were BTS, Indymedia, and BALM people all over the convergence center all the time. When and where did you see these alleged acts of ageism - by organizations whose average age was well above the average age of the activist community in general, mind you - that took place right under the noses of all those BTS, Indymedia, and BALM organizers inside their own convergence center?

As you recall, this was exactly the point when asked for evidence last time in your little parade of lies that you cut off the conversation. So here we sit months later waiting for you to provide any evidence whatsoever that would help us make sense of why you saw these things when no one else did, did not mention these things to anyone when you saw them happening, and, in general, have contributed nothing constructive toward this conversation while slinging shit about the organizations that worked so hard to make the convergence center work to everyone in town except those organizations.

Should you care to actually raise these issues with the BTS, you can send them your concerns at blackteasociety on lists.riseup. Given that it has been months with you slinging shit about them but not to them, I don't think they ought to hold their breath waiting for your email.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
10 Nov 2004
Oh, I forgot to include the evidence - silly me, I think evidence is important in making accusations about people and groups - that exposes your rather clumsy lie about that sign you were carrying (and which you picked up from an enormous stack of ANSWER signs):

The contact info for NoDraftNoWay.com is the exact same as the rest of the WWP front groups and, in fact, contrary to your lie, ANSWER is on the links page as is another WWP front group, the People's Video Network. Here's the telephone listing for that contact info for NODraftNoWay: http://www.google.com/search?sa=X&oi=fwp&pb=f&q=(212)+633-6646

Now, even assuming that you were somehow confused by the presence of ALL ANSWER signs around it or at all not clear that the same mass-produced signs with exactly the same style as all the other answer signs that were in that pile meant that it was an WWP front group, then when you went to that website and came back here to claim that there was no link on the site to ANSWER, then you must have known you were lying. It is, after all, on the page that is called "Links". http://nodraftnoway.org/links.shtml

But, hey, the ANSWER person from RI thinks you're right on. Perhaps you should join their "coalition" and form a Popular Front?
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
10 Nov 2004
old-a
i am not a member of answer. not of your clique, not of theirs, and not of anyone else's. calling people liars is serious business. i work with food not bombs, several underground and community arts organizations, and have worked with save central square, zeitgeist gallery, a2 space, cambridge starbucks boycott, the efforst to stop teh T from banign subway musicians, and just recently with the bread and puppet theater. i'm planning on getting involved with lucy parson- closest i've yet come is save central square, though i've been going there for information and community oriented stuff on and off for eight years now. i show up to protests. i acted as an individual during the DNC because i have a real problem with the affinity group idea. i talked to as many media people as ai could abobut teh need for an end to corporate power, and real choices in elections. i woudl consider myself a decentralist- a movement in teh forties taht mildred loomis and ralph borsodi were invovled in. i am also interested in john holt and free universities. i work alot of day jobs, play music as much as i can, and do whatever i can think of and have energy for that i think will make the world around me better. and i try very hard to respect people.

thats my "organization". not you. not answer. not anyone else. i thought that's what "anarchism" was- not a re-enactment of Lord of the Flies.

can you describe yourself in such terms, or are you just a walking "fuck you" machine? what are you trying to build? how does your presence in the world make it better? worse? or have you been too busy behaving like an animal to people to know?

are you an inflitrator? we had some in my home town that would show up and destroy efforts in exactly the way you were doing. do you work for the fbi? the police? are you a protest disruptor?

what- you're not? or is that a "clumsey lie" you're telling?

how does it feel to be accused of something shitty?

especially if you're not doing it.

i don't know any of these little fringe groups from one another. alll i know is i hate whats going on at the government and corporate leve and i want to make somethign better.

this behavior you're exhibiting stops activists from working together. its puerile, undisciplined, and bullheaded. i'm embarrassed for you. i really am. if i ever meet you, i will laff my ass off at your behavior- except that i know it makes alot of activists miserable and bewildered. protests are for getting something accomplished. if its psychotic anger management you want, you need a shrink or a yoga class or a familial confrontation, not a protest.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
10 Nov 2004
HA! Well, actually, since you brought it up ... You claim that someone was so hurt by this shadowy "clique" because he was called a cop. Well, at the event in question, your friends in ANSWER called me a cop. (The gentleman in question was a tall male, wearing a red shirt with whitish hair who got right up in my face and was being physically threatening on the south side of Boylston street about 30-45 minutes before the march started. Want more details? I'd be happy to provide more evidence and other witnesses.) And now, just for irony, you have as well! How's that for irony? WE didn't actually do this thing that you claim we did but both you and your friends in ANSWER did. To lying, you can add hypocrisy.

And, by the way, lying it indeed was, so don't even attempt those cynical victim ploys. You outright said there was no link to ANSWER when there blatantly is. You intentionally tried to claim that the people there were acting as they were toward you because you were "older" or "dressed down", when in actual fact you were carrying a fucking ANSWER sign. You then denied it was an ANSWER sign at all and then came back here and lied on this same damned thread - It's just up there for chissakes! Did you think people reading the thread would not notice if you lied on the same fucking page?! - that there was no link to ANSWER.

Now, why did you do this? Why did you carry through with this lie? Solely to demonize these people with whom you disagree by calling them bigots. Because you were trying to make a completely false attack against people by calling them -ists of some variety, in this specific case, ageists. As I said before and I will say again in case you have been confused by your own lies: It had absolutely nothing to do with age or the way you were dressed. (Everyone was bundled up! Did you even notice that I, for instance, had on my work clothes? Evidently not, but you and your ANSWER friends can still call me a cop and that's okay with you.) It has everything to do - as I told you before and you denied by way of lie - with the fact that you were carrying a fucking ANSWER sign.

If you want to espouse United Front politics, then do it and be honest about it but spare us your lies and your attempts to denigrate other people who disagree with you by calling them bigots.

I'll not be distracted by your dishonest tactics, however. I'm still waiting - hell, we've all been waiting for months already - to hear your evidence. Where is it? Have you ANY at all? Even second-hand gossip (which would be a huge step-up from outright lies) or anything at all?

But, then, you're not gonna give ANY evidence at all this time either are you? Just like last time, you come in, sling shit about the organizations that pulled together and staffed the convergence center the whole time, and then refuse to provide any evidence. Again. How many other forums will we see you repeat this in? Are you hoping to find some group uninformed enough to not know you're lying while you're running down the efforts of three organizations that worked their asses off to make the convergence center at the DNC work?

Frankly, this little game of yours is getting old, but at this point, I'm interested to know - given your complete refusal after months and months to try to address any supposed concerns about events for which you will give no details or evidence and about the supposed bigotries of groups that you never bothered to approach before or after the DNC - why do you insist on slandering these people and organizations all around town? Most of these people don't even know you, yet you seem bent on attacking them to everyone except themselves. Why? If you will not - as usual - provide any evidence to back up your claims at all, could you at least tell those groups why you are attacking them and calling them bigots?
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
10 Nov 2004
Oh, and, speaking of the interesting phenomenon of threads all on the same page, this is a real gem from up above in light of your last post:

"if anyone in that group is grown up enough to try and have dialouge without calling me a "fucking answer asshole" or a "cop" or "non-affiliated" or whatever all else i've seen"

If they are "grown up enough" and don't call you a "cop"? The first is self-referential, given then you were calling those people ageist bigots and the second is self-referential after your last post. Takes real skill to work not one but two self-referential denouncements into one sentence.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
10 Nov 2004
old-a
i am not a member of answer. not of your clique, not of theirs, and not of anyone else's. calling people liars is serious business. i work with food not bombs, several underground and community arts organizations, and have worked with save central square, zeitgeist gallery, a2 space, cambridge starbucks boycott, the efforst to stop teh T from banign subway musicians, and just recently with the bread and puppet theater. i'm planning on getting involved with lucy parson- closest i've yet come is save central square, though i've been going there for information and community oriented stuff on and off for eight years now. i show up to protests. i acted as an individual during the DNC because i have a real problem with the affinity group idea. i talked to as many media people as ai could abobut teh need for an end to corporate power, and real choices in elections. i woudl consider myself a decentralist- a movement in teh forties taht mildred loomis and ralph borsodi were invovled in. i am also interested in john holt and free universities. i work alot of day jobs, play music as much as i can, and do whatever i can think of and have energy for that i think will make the world around me better. and i try very hard to respect people.

thats my "organization". not you. not answer. not anyone else. i thought that's what "anarchism" was- not a re-enactment of Lord of the Flies.

can you describe yourself in such terms, or are you just a walking "fuck you" machine? what are you trying to build? how does your presence in the world make it better? worse? or have you been too busy behaving like an animal to people to know?

are you an inflitrator? we had some in my home town that would show up and destroy efforts in exactly the way you were doing. do you work for the fbi? the police? are you a protest disruptor?

what- you're not? or is that a "clumsey lie" you're telling?

how does it feel to be accused of something shitty?

especially if you're not doing it.

i don't know any of these little fringe groups from one another. alll i know is i hate whats going on at the government and corporate leve and i want to make somethign better.

this behavior you're exhibiting stops activists from working together. its puerile, undisciplined, and bullheaded. i'm embarrassed for you. i really am. if i ever meet you, i will laff my ass off at your behavior- except that i know it makes alot of activists miserable and bewildered. protests are for getting something accomplished. if its psychotic anger management you want, you need a shrink or a yoga class or a familial confrontation, not a protest.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
10 Nov 2004
Uh, Katt, I agree with a lot of your points, but some of the language you're using is really agressive and nasty--the kind of thing you're criticizing other people for. I can understand why you're angry at some of the more cliquish anarchists, but the way you're addressing them is as disrespectful as anything they're doing.

Old-A, I think Katt is raising some legitimate issues about cliquishness and the behavior of some of the anarchists at this protest. It's not a matter of United Front politics. It's a matter of, there were a lot of people there who knew nothing about ANSWER and by screaming at ANSWER, all you succeeded in doing was looking like jerks to those new people, who might otherwise have been interested in your ideas.

I suggest this dialogue might be more productive if you both set aside your suspicions of the other's motives and tried focusing on substantial points.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
11 Nov 2004
wow. who am i speaking to? do i know you? as far as i know- though i could be wrong, perhaps i've talked to you before under some other name than old-a? as far as i know, i have never talked to you before-- you will undoubtedly call me a liar yet again, but i have not lied to you or anyone once on this forum. but what can i do? i'm not a member of answer or any other group other than food not bombs and some arts organizations. really. and if i have friend sin answer, which i STILL don't know why you hate so much, except that someone at the protest came up to me and said they had "stabbed other groups in the back", i don't know it. . . .and if i do, well, fine. they haven't done me any harm as of yet.

evidence of ageism. okay. all from my own eyes and conversations with people. what you would undoubtedly call "gossip", but boag treatment is s subtle thing on many occasions. i'm not using names, because i don't know if i have their permission on this forum- if we were to talk privatley, i coudl be more specific . . since you seem to think everything that comes out of my mouth is a lie, i dont' suppose it matters. but here's the stuff i've seen and heard about that i'm going on that makes me say there's a clique problem based on age and fashion choices in the boston area right now.

1. the crying man i cited who got called a "fucking pig" even though he's not(and yes i'll vouch for him even though i met him recently).

2. a person i know in cambridge who got sluffed off when they tried to ask questions in the convergence center about actions-- so they tell me. they worked with the green party, mostly.after a couple days they told me they felt thouroughly unwelcome and stopped going there.

3. a person in food not bombs who says they feel discriminated against because of their age, and repeatedly complains that there are new members who are domineering and only interested in working with people who are like themselves. this person is still minimally invovled, but slipping away fast. invovled since the late eighties.

4. the out of town person i talked to during the DNC who came up to me and asked what an "affinity group" was. i told him i didn't know. he said he'd felt thouroughly unwelcome at the convergence center because he wasn't in one, and told he should have come to a meeting, even though he was from far away. this person was in their fifties, by the look of them-

5. the two people i was talking to yesterday. one is trying to start booking shows, the other is living on the streets. they cited not going to lucy parsons or food not bombs anymore after years of participation because of "angry young vegans" who were rude to them because they didn't share their values. "they're everywhere, man, they're the new establishment" one of them added.

6. during the DNC i was wearing a mask.i'm a girl, but apparently the person from the convergence center marching next to me didn't see that. i had a drum, and he suddenly turned around and shouted "no more drumming from fascist white old men!!" i pulled up my mask. since he was white and male, i pointed out mildly that he would also be old one day, and maybe we were all in this together. he looked abashed. i stopped playing a while until he was not in teh vicinity, to try and excercise the respect which had not been shown to me.

7. a group of mostly young looking folks yelling"fucking answer" at anyone older and not dressed like them regardless of whether they are in answer or not. what we're talking about now.

8. i talked to the people staying with me during the DNC- they are in their fifties. i asked them if it was all in my imagination that convergence center folks were being mean and exclusive along age and fashion lines. they said not at all, but the young will be young. they said when they went in people were cold to them, and it took a couple days before people weren't.

9. as i stood behind the deskat the convergence center, taking a rest, a person from cambridge i've seen around doing work(mostly on eviction related stuff) came in. the two people at the desk started whispering to each other "gawd, i think he's a cop, dont' you" "yeah, look at him, fuckin hippie".

10. my friend who wasto play at the festival on the common got a phone call from someone in the black tea society the night before, telling my friend that they were "too weird", even though they'd already been booked. this friend stayed away from the whole DNC, fearing missing solidarity might put them in a bad situation with police, and angry at being left out. although this person's age might not be the issue, they definitely don't appear to be a part of the black tea society or any of the groups i see over the last few months doing this stuff. clique-ism.

11. approaching tables run by people i'd seen at the convergence center, i said hello, and may i see your literature. i was given icey stares. another friend reported the same. only teh boston people behaved this way- out of town folks were very interested in communicationa nd dialouge. this is before i started talking about age-ism and fashion cliques in the community. i didn't really start untiol very near teh convention. . . maybe even after. so i know thats not what the issue was. i didn't even know these people. they were very friendly to people who looked like them, though. my friend noted this also.

12. at a food not bombs meal prepared by those amazing out of town folks with the buses, two members from boston started bad mouthing someone they'd recently thrown out. the person in question was cast out of teh organization because people felt they had behaved obnoxiously on a number of occasions, but one of the reasons for their being thrown out have been cited to me as they was invovled with someone who the Group perceived as being too young for them. this is what our two members shared with the food bus folks, at length and ad mauseum-- instead of talking about food not bombs, they gossipped about this person by name and spread as much dirt on them as they could, just like a clique. i talked to them about it later, and told them what i thought about it,and asked, please, please, if we have trouble with someone, couldn't we just deal with it, do we have to go around spreading dirt and shit about someone like that? isn't that a wee bit ugly? anyway, they seemed to agree. . . the whole situation has me quite uncomfortable, because it smacks of group authoritarianism, just as dangerous as individual authoritarianism.

13. a long time housing activist in their fifties told me about two months ago that they have stopped going to the lucy parsons center because it feels like the "kids there dont' wanty me in there or something"

14. in a meeting at the convergence center(perhaps you were there) a fellow from out of town asked what an affinity group was and what to do because he didn't know anybody. the person running the meeting said "well, there were plenty of meetings, you should have come to one"-- when he said he wasn;'t from here the moderator was a little nicer, and told him to just meet some people and get into an affinity group. i talked to this guy the next day, when he asked me if i was an affinity group and could he join me. i told him sure, but i was only an individual and acting alone. i asked him if he found one yet- he said he hadn't and people were "all in a clique". what would have happened if he'd been arrested? solidarity or affinity groups?

15. i went into the convergence center and talked to people every time i had a few more conversations like these with folks. i went up to whoever was sitting at the desk three times(three different people) and told them i'd been hearing from friends and aquaintances that they were being treated badly because of their age or the way they dressed or because they didn't know enough people. one person cited security culture. the other two nodded and said "oh really" and so forth, seemed to listen, so i went on about my business. however, when i watched people come in, if they were dressed like the people behind teh desk and seemed on the younger side, they were greeted enthusiastically, even if they didn't know each other. when older people came in, they were treated- on the whole- with more coldness and suspiscion.

16. the small numbers of demonstrators. cambridge had its own, separate demonstrations. most of the people participating, according to people i know who went, were older than most of the people running the convergence center- again, based on appearance. i did not talk to anyone about this beyond that, but don't think it just MIGHT be indicitive of a divide? all the older protesters and all the younger protesters in DIFFERENT protests?
also note, i've read it over, that none of these conversations have repeated people in them-- each one i cite is with someone else from all the others.

little of this stuff has happened to me personally. in fact, if i'd just shut up and not mentioned that a bunch of people i'm aquainted or friends with were treated like shit and let it slide by, i'd probably be alot more popular right now. but i dont' really feel like i can do that. so now i'm sure i'll get treated that way too. its the people i'm having conversations with that i'm concerned about, though. many of them are long time activists, and it seems to me that they are cut off from the people i see behaving in this fashion, most of whom i didnt' see here until recently. i'm sure i could think of more instances. . . . .anyone else seeing this stuff? anyone disagree? what do people think? because what i'd like to see is a dialouge, which is hard when everything i say is called a Lie. i think a simple honest dialouge woudl really go a long way towards solving the problem. but its nearly impossible when you've got a group of folks who woudl rather leap about like rabid gorrillas shreiking"FUCK YOU! LIAR!" at anything that moves

there is little specific about such a problem. its not like anyone really WANTS to go arund hating people because they are dressed different of another age group. its a subtle thing. its tends to be contained in non-verbal kinds of communication. if it were just me, i woudl certainly think i was paranoid and so forth, but i keep hearing about it. over and over again.

infiltrators. why do i think you'rebehaving like one if you scream fuck you at random people in a protest?

we had a group of them in ann arbor, where i grew up. at least thats what most of the activists there that i knew thought, including some international journalists who were very interested in being truthful at ALL times, so i agreed with this assesment. they were really quite good, unfortunately. every time a group was going to get something accomplished, they would show up screaming and yelling "FUCK YOU" at pretty much everybody and throw things and then claim to be a part of the group they were trying to dismantle. they were called, as i recall, N-ROC. here are some examples:

1. the homeless action commitee lost a building this way- on the night the city council was likely going to vote to give it to them by a slim margin, to use as a homeless shelter, N-ROC showed up, said they were with the HAC(they weren't), and threw desks, tables, and microphones, clapped, yelled, and hollered. the city counil then voted unanimously to give the building to a condo developer.

2. the teachers were striking for a better contract. students, parents and teachers were all on the same side for a change, and it looked good for the union. then N-ROC put up fliers all over town-- one was an anti-student/parent demo for teachers and one was an anti-teacher demo for families. each scheduled to take place at the same time and spot. well,it was horrible, everyolne blaming the other side, with plenty of egging on from N-ROC. there was such confusion that the coalition between the teachers and the families fell apart. of course, AFTER the incident, N-ROC took credit, but it was too late to mend relations.

3. the ku klux klan showed up to town every year. N-ROC showed up too. one year, They hit the klan leader's wife in the head with a brick and almost killed her.at teh same time they tried to beat a man visiting town who had a confederate flag on and was riding by on his bike to DEATH. His life was saved by a girl from the high school black student union throwing herself over his body to protect him. the entire thing made national news. now whats the matter with that, you might ask? the matter with that is this: the way the klan gets its money is to have these protests in cities, be really incendiary, and then sue the city for HUGE money when something goes wrong. needless to say, after she recovered from her concussion, the klan sued ann arbor for a comfy slice of the city's coffers to help fund their next rally.

4. N-ROC would routinely show up to demonstrations and shout FUCK YOU at various organizartions, accusing them of all kinds of things, claiming to be from counter organizations. This would start arguing in the protest, and destroy what fragile soldarity existed. then when police came to arrest people, there was too much dissarray for any sort of group effort to defend the protesters. Very simalar to what you and your friends were doing in copley square.

though really, i'm calling you an infiltrator to prove a point. i dont know WHO i'm talking to. really i don't. and given that i don't, i wonder if you do either, since you say you've talked to me before. but you are ready and willing to assume everything i say is a lie just because you don't want to hear it, and think i'm a member of a group that i still don't know anything about(i'm going to go find about thhis answer group, and try to find otu why people are so angry with them), say say you've "shut my shit down" and been talking to me for months- who, who, WHO is this?? well, whoever it is, my answers change not a whit-- i still think screaming fuck you at fellow demonstrators is a horrible thing to do. if a.n.s.w.e.r. did it to you, then all i say applies to them as well. and seeing as how you seem too enraged to have anythign but what you believe true coem out of your mouth(keyboard), i think i believe you when you say they threatened you. then again, how many times did you scream "FUCK YOU" at them first?

when i say i dont' know anything about answer, i really mean i don't know ANYTHING. i came to an anti-war protest, saw a pile of anti-war signs, and took one. but you are ready to damn me from here to hell and gone because you think there might be a connection between answer and this anti draft thing. i loked at their link page befpre i wrote you. what did i miss? i see(i'm looking at it right now, nodraftnoway.org)-- nodraftnoway merchandise, SNAFU, International Action Center, and people's video network. thats all. are these ALL answer? yes? no? thats all thats there. http://nodraftnoway.org/links.shtml

now.

what do you hope to accomplish? here i am. i'm ready to help out with all kinds of efforts, talk to all kinds of people and listen to what they have to say about shit(hence my dismay over what i percieve to be age-ism and so forth), want abetter world, would happily listen to what you want to build and why and see if i coudl help or what anyone else who wants to create alternative universes to fascism and corporate domination and fundie religious zaelotry and poverty and all this. . . . i've read all kinds fo books about efforts over the last century-- i really resonate with ralph borsodi, stephen gaskin, john holt, the nearings, howard rheingold, mildred loomis, myles horton, buckminster fuller. . . are all these people national front folks? are they? please do tell.i am not a communist. i read it. i rejected it. i *am* a communitarian. there aren;t many here, because its mostly a rural movement. very different from communism. and i think i probably hate authoritarianism just as much as you, if not more. authoritarianism can come from a crowd just as easily as from a single heirarchy-- hence my reference to Lord of the Flies.

i try hard to be a resource for the people around me. you, me, anyone else, could have spent all this energy dealing with the problems each of us is seeing, coming up with mutual aid and dialouge about our separate troubles, which ultimately effect one another in such a small community, if only, if ONLY, you had not behaved so fantastically OBNOXIOUSLY and THREATENINGLY and yelled FUCK YOU all the time adn repeated called me a LIAR even though i dont' even think i know you-- when i have conversations with people, i don't want to hear that they went to food not bombs or the black tea society's convergence center or the lucy parsons center and got treated with disrespect. do you? i mean, really, do you? i'm sorry you had a bad time with answer. this undoubtedly needs to be solved, just as what i'm hearing about on my end does, for the boston activist community to be more whole, effective, and trusting of one another.

now i can't be a resource for you, you can't be a resource for me, all there is is what you built by your hateful, disrespectful behavior.thats what you've built this week.thats the fruits of your labor. is that a better world? where you want to live? what do you want to build? a animalistic teeth nashing rabies pit, or a better world to live in?
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
11 Nov 2004
(there, is that less nasty? i'm trying, i'm really mad, and email always sounds worse than human voices-- apologies for being nasty if i was)
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
11 Nov 2004
Wow. That's quite a list of accusations against a rather astonishing number of the organizations in town. In fact, it appears to be almost all of the anti-authoritarian groups (except that bizarre part where you actually accuse the entire city). Hmm. You claim not to know that the IAC and ANSWER are the same group - Did you not even bother to click on the link? - or to have any knowledge of why anti-authoritarians would not want to be associated with ANSWER and yet you have more than enough attacks to go around for damned near every anti-authoritarian group in town. Your calling anyone an "infiltrator" after such a display of full-spectrum attack is just a bonus.

The interesting thing about this great volume of accusations you have here is that there is so few instances of any possible route we could pursue for corroboration or verification or - if any of them had actually happened - restitution. Why? Because you have provided us with again *sigh* no evidence. Merely repeating your accusations (and throwing in new accusations against other random groups to boot!) does not help us to constructively address your accusations whatsoever. Perhaps this is too general a point, however, since I have made it over and over again as you bounce from forum to forum slandering us, so I'm going to go through these and delineate the necessary details that would be necessary for each accusation to be useful. I'm attempting to meet you halfway here, so I'd greatly appreciate your filling in these holes in information which I will then forward ASAP to those organizations so that they might then determine the truth of these accusations and make any necessary restitutions and changes to their internal culture, etc. If this is going to be at all constructive, though, there must be some sort of evidence beyond your repeatedly stating your accusations.

I claim no knowledge of the internal workings of FNB or the LPC groups - the two that you specifically attack in this long list in addition to the three at the convergence center - but I will still ask the appropriate questions of specificity because the necessary data requests are logical and do not require special knowledge of the facts (or lack thereof) of your accusations.

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1. the crying man i cited who got called a "fucking pig" even though he's not(and yes i'll vouch for him even though i met him recently).
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What man? Who was he? How might we find him to ask him about his first-hand experience and to determine which person did this.

(On a side note, you are vouching for a person you just met? Huh? Doesn't that seem very bizarre even to you?)

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2. a person i know in cambridge who got sluffed off when they tried to ask questions in the convergence center about actions-- so they tell me. they worked with the green party, mostly.after a couple days they told me they felt thouroughly unwelcome and stopped going there.
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See above. Who is this person? How might we contact them to get their first-hand experiences?

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3. a person in food not bombs who says they feel discriminated against because of their age, and repeatedly complains that there are new members who are domineering and only interested in working with people who are like themselves. this person is still minimally invovled, but slipping away fast. invovled since the late eighties.
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See above. Who is this person, etc.?

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4. the out of town person i talked to during the DNC who came up to me and asked what an "affinity group" was. i told him i didn't know. he said he'd felt thouroughly unwelcome at the convergence center because he wasn't in one, and told he should have come to a meeting, even though he was from far away. this person was in their fifties, by the look of them-
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See above. Who was this person, etc?

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5. the two people i was talking to yesterday. one is trying to start booking shows, the other is living on the streets. they cited not going to lucy parsons or food not bombs anymore after years of participation because of "angry young vegans" who were rude to them because they didn't share their values. "they're everywhere, man, they're the new establishment" one of them added.
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See above. Who are these people, etc?

(Vegans are "the establishment"? And not just that, but they have some sort of tyranny in a book store collective? I'll let the LPC folks handle that accusation but it certainly does not square with my experiences there.)

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6. during the DNC i was wearing a mask.i'm a girl, but apparently the person from the convergence center marching next to me didn't see that. i had a drum, and he suddenly turned around and shouted "no more drumming from fascist white old men!!" i pulled up my mask. since he was white and male, i pointed out mildly that he would also be old one day, and maybe we were all in this together. he looked abashed. i stopped playing a while until he was not in teh vicinity, to try and excercise the respect which had not been shown to me.
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See above. Who was this? Any identifying info at all? Etc, etc.

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7. a group of mostly young looking folks yelling"fucking answer" at anyone older and not dressed like them regardless of whether they are in answer or not. what we're talking about now.
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Erm. Okay. At least this one we know who the people in question are. You seem to have been confused by your own lies in direct contradiction to the obvious facts of the situation which I have laid out to you multiple times and yet you keep going back to your own lie. Those people did not care how old you were or how you were dressed, they were upset solely because of your fucking ANSWER sign. I don't know how I can make it any more plain than that and, frankly, anyone reading this thread thus far and seeing the evidence above knows at this point that you are lying so I'm surprised you're still trying to maintain this "They're bigots!" ploy.

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8. i talked to the people staying with me during the DNC- they are in their fifties. i asked them if it was all in my imagination that convergence center folks were being mean and exclusive along age and fashion lines. they said not at all, but the young will be young. they said when they went in people were cold to them, and it took a couple days before people weren't.
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Who were these people, etc, etc?

(Uh, yeah, duh. People who didn't know them were cold to them? Are you serious? They were cold to me. They were cold to all of us. They were cold to each other. That's cause .... TADA! .... they didn't know us or you or each other. How on earth is that surprising? How does it have anything whatsoever to do with the convergence center being a "clique" or horrible bigots as you allege, especially given that the majority of these people who were "cold" to you or them or us or even each other were from out of town and had nothing to do with BTS, Indymedia, or BALM? Sheesh.)

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9. as i stood behind the deskat the convergence center, taking a rest, a person from cambridge i've seen around doing work(mostly on eviction related stuff) came in. the two people at the desk started whispering to each other "gawd, i think he's a cop, dont' you" "yeah, look at him, fuckin hippie".
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Who were the people at the desk, etc and so forth?

(This is rather obviously absurd. Even you cannot claim to seriously maintain that these people supposedly thought that a person was both a hippy AND a cop. Frankly, it's exactly this sort of absurdity, mixed in with the outright lies that you have showcased on this thread that makes so many people just write your accusations off. If your own accusations don't even make sense internally, how are people supposed to take them seriously and take time to investigate them?)

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10. my friend who wasto play at the festival on the common got a phone call from someone in the black tea society the night before, telling my friend that they were "too weird", even though they'd already been booked. this friend stayed away from the whole DNC, fearing missing solidarity might put them in a bad situation with police, and angry at being left out. although this person's age might not be the issue, they definitely don't appear to be a part of the black tea society or any of the groups i see over the last few months doing this stuff. clique-ism.
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Awesome. Your friend, eh? Great. Who is it? How can we contact them to get their first-hand aacount? Furthermore, who is the supposed person from the Bazaar who called them and told them they were "too weird" so that we might hunt this person down and cast them out of our midst?

(Actually, I worked on the Bazaar group as an organizer. I still have the records of who was booked and I know for a fact that the above accusation is an outright lie. There was no perfomer, zero, none cancelled the day before the event and the list of performers had been set for weeks in advance.)

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11. approaching tables run by people i'd seen at the convergence center, i said hello, and may i see your literature. i was given icey stares. another friend reported the same. only teh boston people behaved this way- out of town folks were very interested in communicationa nd dialouge. this is before i started talking about age-ism and fashion cliques in the community. i didn't really start untiol very near teh convention. . . maybe even after. so i know thats not what the issue was. i didn't even know these people. they were very friendly to people who looked like them, though. my friend noted this also.
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Which tables? Which people? Etc, etc?

(This is a really interesting one. So, you are now claiming that all Boston people have this horrible bigotry? This problem afflicted only people from Boston even though the tables set up by Boston groups was from a wide range of political, social, and cultural backgrounds. I see. All of Boston itself is the problem. Uh-huh. Are you serious? Wow. Perhaps in addition to the conspiracy between Indymedia, BTS, and BALM to create an enviroment of exclusion and bigotry, the Boston Water Department has added "ageistic bigotry" drugs into the local water supply?)

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12. at a food not bombs meal prepared by those amazing out of town folks with the buses, two members from boston started bad mouthing someone they'd recently thrown out. the person in question was cast out of teh organization because people felt they had behaved obnoxiously on a number of occasions, but one of the reasons for their being thrown out have been cited to me as they was invovled with someone who the Group perceived as being too young for them. this is what our two members shared with the food bus folks, at length and ad mauseum-- instead of talking about food not bombs, they gossipped about this person by name and spread as much dirt on them as they could, just like a clique. i talked to them about it later, and told them what i thought about it,and asked, please, please, if we have trouble with someone, couldn't we just deal with it, do we have to go around spreading dirt and shit about someone like that? isn't that a wee bit ugly? anyway, they seemed to agree. . . the whole situation has me quite uncomfortable, because it smacks of group authoritarianism, just as dangerous as individual authoritarianism.
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Who was being outcast? Who was doing the talking, etc, etc, etc?

(Wow, look at all the self-referential pieces of that one. Talking about people not to them. Yep, yo're doing that. Spreading shit about people instead of "deal"ing with it. Yep, you're doing that, too.)

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13. a long time housing activist in their fifties told me about two months ago that they have stopped going to the lucy parsons center because it feels like the "kids there dont' wanty me in there or something"
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Who, etc and so forth.

(Again we have this hypocrisy. You and your un-named friends refer to these people who you are accusing of being ageist bigots as "kids" or tell them to "grow up". There has thus far been much ageism in this conversation but you have been the source.

Furthermore, some of the people who spend lots of time working at the LPC and set the culture tone are themselves far above the average activist age. Are they bigotted against themselves, perhaps? And, even further, IT'S A BOOKSTORE. The volunteer staff who keep it running day-to-day are constantly trying to make the atmosphere as welcoming as they know how, but it is still a bookstore and as such it tends to be a quiet, reading sort of atmosphere. Rather than talking shit about the LPC volunteers and calling them ageist bigots on Indymedia, why not give them suggestions as to how to be more welcoming? I know for a fact that they are always on the lookout for exactly those sorts of suggestions and would appreciate any helpful input in that regard. Slinging shit about them and not to them - the same as all these groups you have attacked here - is not at constructive, however.)

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14. in a meeting at the convergence center(perhaps you were there) a fellow from out of town asked what an affinity group was and what to do because he didn't know anybody. the person running the meeting said "well, there were plenty of meetings, you should have come to one"-- when he said he wasn;'t from here the moderator was a little nicer, and told him to just meet some people and get into an affinity group. i talked to this guy the next day, when he asked me if i was an affinity group and could he join me. i told him sure, but i was only an individual and acting alone. i asked him if he found one yet- he said he hadn't and people were "all in a clique". what would have happened if he'd been arrested? solidarity or affinity groups?
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Ooh. Here's one with at least a reasonably limited number of people it could possibly be that you are accusing. There was no one person "running" any meeting, but I'll overlook that as I'm overjoyued merely to have any details that are useful for discussion at all.

I so-facillitated one of those meetings, I was at all of them, and I do remember a person asking this. I don't remember who was facillitating that particular meeting, but you are absolutely wrong about what they said in response. Given that the person was asking a question which could never possibly have been answered adequately in a spokes meeting that was for coordination and news briefings of the various affinity groups, colectives, and organizations planning for the next day's events, the facillitators did the best thing they could have done. They told him to talk to them afterward about what an affinity group was so they could explain in detail and that, in general, he should find people with similar interests and action interests. What else could you have possibly wanted them to do? It was a fucking spokes meeting the night before a major event! They were as concise, respectfull, and helpful as anyone could possibly have hoped they would have been and I cannot imagine what more you could have asked from them.

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15. i went into the convergence center and talked to people every time i had a few more conversations like these with folks. i went up to whoever was sitting at the desk three times(three different people) and told them i'd been hearing from friends and aquaintances that they were being treated badly because of their age or the way they dressed or because they didn't know enough people. one person cited security culture. the other two nodded and said "oh really" and so forth, seemed to listen, so i went on about my business. however, when i watched people come in, if they were dressed like the people behind teh desk and seemed on the younger side, they were greeted enthusiastically, even if they didn't know each other. when older people came in, they were treated- on the whole- with more coldness and suspiscion.
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Who were these people at the desk? Do you have any identifying info at all?

(Sigh. Please, if you're going to make these accusations, keep your story straight. First you say that people were being discriminated against because they were too old or didn't know "enough people". Then you claim that not knowing "enough people" had nothing to do with it and it only mattered how old they were.)

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16. the small numbers of demonstrators. cambridge had its own, separate demonstrations. most of the people participating, according to people i know who went, were older than most of the people running the convergence center- again, based on appearance. i did not talk to anyone about this beyond that, but don't think it just MIGHT be indicitive of a divide? all the older protesters and all the younger protesters in DIFFERENT protests?
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What event are you talking about in Cambridge? Which group(s) organized this event? When did these events occur?
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
11 Nov 2004
IMPORTANT CLARIFICATION: i am not "accusing entire organizations". the lucy parsons center , the black tea society, and food not bomb do not have age-ist, fashion discrimanatory, or clique cetered directive built into themselves. if they did, i would not be concerned. i admire and/or participate in the work of these organizations. i believe in them. this is why i find this aggressivly disrespectful and exclusionary behavior from a few people within these organizations so bad- because i think it takes AWAY from the good work of these organizations, undermines them, and makes them less effective. it drives a rift into them, which damages them. lucy parsons and food not bombs, as i knew them, were places where i could find folks of many political persuasions, ages, backgrounds, philosophies. and now there's this stuff i've been talking about. . . .i think they are fantastically important organizations, and i dont' want to see them damaged by the actions of a few folks who are cliquish and rude adn screamign obscenities at people. for the record, i don't know anytyhing about answer except that they prganize protests at some level, and thus have nothing against them either. perhaps i shoudl have left the organizations anonymous, too, but i assmued the difference between individuals behaving problematically and organizations would be obvious.

i saw people screaming obscenities at folks who were NOT holding signs. no one screamed obscenities at me at the rally. only at others. no one screamed at me. even though i was holding that no draft sign. i am upset over what i saw being done to others. i was upset enough to leave. who else did you drive out of the protest?

you keep calling me a liar, over and over.everytime i say something you disagree with, you *assume* its a lie. its inflamatory, disrespectful, childish, and rude. why don't you put your hands over your ears and say "nya nya, i don't heeaaarr yooouuuu!" everytime i write/say something you don't like? what i say, i know to be true, otherwise i wouldn't state it. i may, perhaps, be wrong. . . but i am *not* lying, and i also wouldn't talk about this stuff if i thought it was wrong, either. i had all these conversations with people. this is what i remember them saying. if you write me off list, i can definitly tell you about the ones i know. some of them i dont' know. but i did talk to them. and this is what they said. thats why i cited them. if you talk to people that way, calling them LIAR every time they say something you think isn't the case, dialouge will be impossible. i don't really want to put my friends and aquaintances up for treatment like that, so i didn't name anyone. . . and some, as i say, i met in conversation and couldn't name anyway. i think the only way i'd talk to you at this point woudl be in a mediated discussion opresided over by someone we both held in trust. though i STILL don't know to WHOM i'm talking. you say you know me. i don't know who this is. very creepy, man, VERY creepy. . . .

the people i described as behaving "coldly" were hostile. they behaved markedly differently from people i met from out of town, and from people from other boston groups. it was NOT everyone from boston. it was people from a handful of organizations in boston. they were predominantly young, and dressed all in the same manner.i saw some of the same people screaming obscenities at the rally in copely square. other groups from boston-- not the ones screaming obscenities and being mean at the convergence center desk and so forth-- did not behave in this manner. it was not *all* people from boston- any more than everything i say is a *lie*. however, you said something rather telling. you write ". . .were from out of town and had nothing to do with BTS, Indymedia, or BALM". This is completely wrong, and may be at the heart of the problem. they had EVERYTHING to do with these organizations, as people who had come to town to be at a series of protests WITH these organizations. BALM was there to help everyone at the protest, not just their friends. it was a BALM person who called me a "fascist old white man" (heee haw haw haw, this one really blew me away, i'm a youngish, anti-fascist, hispanic woman, ha haw haw. . . .)- but what would have happened if i'd been hurt and this particular balm person had been the one near-by? wasn;'t too long after that i missed getting ramed into by a panicing cop by about an inch. . . .do i then have nothing to do with this balm person? aren't we marching in the same protest? what do you call it -- solidarity or cliqe-ish-ness? don't you think that puts the WHOLE protest in danger, assuming people from out of town- or who aren;'t like you in other ways- have "nothing to do" with organizations that are IN town, during a NATIONAL rally with a whole SHIT load of people showing up to protest? what next? well, screaming obscenities at teh groups taht have "nothign to do" with you is the obvious next step. what other ways can you think of to destroy solidarity.


to continue with your accusation that i lied about no draft no way. no i don't know what the international action center is. i didn't click on their link, i only looked at nodraftnoway's link page. i don't hold the paranoic assertion that every single group everywhere must somehow be ANSWER-- ya know, i thought maybe that was a different group called "international action center"-- BUT! since you say they are this group-- which as of yet, i still don't know why you hate so much(answer, that is)-- i went there! because since you keep calling me a liar, we have to go through all this silliness. . . i went there just now--
http://www.iacenter.org/

i don't see answer. i see bunch of news catagories, and a statement that it was founded by "former attorney general ramsey clark". i see links to a number of other organizations, NONE of which say ANSWER. there are links to a million worker march, the people judge bush, leftbooks, and back to nodraftnoway. i see no mention of answer anywhere.oh but i must be lying again. of course, ALL these organizations are really scary national fronts in disguise, and i am behind them all, manipulating them with my evil alien mind probe!! lies, lies everywhere! please come off it-- what i say i know to be true. otherwise i would not say it.

as to getting on forums. . . i dont' do it often. i'm home with bronchitis, so i'm on. i did get on one other forum and without specifying what community i was talking about(without naming ANYTHING, so as NOT to be accusing groups and people and so forth)-- outlined the problem as i see it(same as i've been attempting to do here). that forum gave me back alot of good suggestions. . . .obviously you were not on that forum, as i was not subjected there to a vitriolic shower of "LIAR!" "AUTHORITARIAN!" "NATIONAL FRONT POLITICS!" i know several people in food not bombs, and a few at lucy parsons, and i will take the good suggestions i got there. . . you say you've seen me on other forums-- perhaps i wrote to one a long while back and forgot about it? i could have-- i haven't been on a forum in a long while- but could it be there is another person around who is seeing the same stuff? did this person you say you "shut down your shit" about- was that me? are you sure? under the name "katt"? if it was i believe you-- because i dont' randomly assume people are liars. but i don't recall writing about it, nor getting a reply. . .. did i post on teh black tea society site? when?

are you sure you've talked to me before? because i still don't know to whom i'm speaking. you know who i am. seems unfair. well, if you want to continue this discussion more specifically(names descriptions), it'll have to be in private, and if you continue to treat me like an animal, with a mediator. i saw what i saw, and said so. i don't really have much more time to come back to your accusation that i'm a lying member of answer and the national front(really, really absurd, man, really really absurd). i would like it if the next time i went to a rally one group of yahoos wasn't yelling FUCK YOU at anyone and everyone they thought maybe might be a part of something they don't happen to agree with in its entirety(obviously you and answer agreed on the need for a rally, now, didn't you?) who are IN the SAME protest. that makes ugliness and hatred for everyone. i'm sure others will be coming to tell you the same thing.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
11 Nov 2004
Okay, that's it. That takes the whole fucking cake.

I'm sick of the fucking lies and I can't take anymore of them. I have been more patient with your rampant dishonesty than I probably should have been, but my patience is at an end. The last straw of your last post was one too many. To explicitly claim that you

"don't see answer. i see bunch of news catagories, and a statement that it was founded by "former attorney general ramsey clark". i see links to a number of other organizations, NONE of which say ANSWER."

on the www.iacenter.org site is just too far disjointed from reality to justify wasting my time further.

If you, honestly or dishonestly, continue to claim that you don't see ANSWER listed and linked to on a page on which the top right corner and the bottom left corner of the fucking front page BOTH have ANSWER in all capital letters and a total of 6!! SIX!! different mentions of ANSWER on that one page alone, then we are either living in incompatible, divergent realities or you are a liar.

Honestly, I'm beginning to think the former is closer to the truth because there is just no way you could expect a lie like "I don't see answer." to hold up when the very first fucking thing that pops up on the page is a link to ANSWER. All anyone has to do is click on the link and they instantly know you're lying, so I'm at a loss as to why you would do this over and over and over again in this conversation. In fact, if it is the latter, then it would appear to be of lying of pathological proportions because it would appear to be doing you and your ever-growing string of accusations nothing but harm.

Even if you were somehow oblivious to their connection before and too lazy to do a google search (or even click on the fucking link I got from google for you!), it is simply not possible for you to continue to claim ignorance. The fact that you are trying to claim this ignorance as a means of calling another group of people bigots is just flat-out disgusting.

I can't take it any more. Either you are the worst, most incompetent liar I have met in many, many years or you are nothing short of full-blown delusional. Regardless of which is which, I have run out of patience. There may well have been some real problems during the DNC with any number of things but you are sure as hell not the source for any accurate understanding of anything that might have happened. At this point, if you told me it was raining outside I would feel compelled to go outside and verify the report.

Furthermore, throughout this thread - a thread wherein you are accusing vast swathes of the Boston community of ageism - you have constantly used the most ageist terms of reference and abuse without even a glimmer of consciousness of this fact. We - and by we, I include myself, who am approximately your same age and look even older - have been called "fucking kids", "puerile", "juvenilia", "undisciplined", "wench" and "childish". (Not even to mention that you have called me personally a cop and an infiltrator repeatedly, after starting the conversation off with a claim that we would be the ones to call YOU those names and even having the audacity to list the claim that WE brought someone else to tears by doing that very thing!) This kind of complete incoherence between your accusations and your behavior, between the stories you tell about events and the directly observable evidence of those events is simply to great to write off as a misunderstanding. Again, either you are playing some sort of manipulative, dishonest game by claiming we are bigots while being a bigot or you honestly don't notice this chasm between your accusations and your own behavior. Again, regardless of which is accurate, I no longer see anything productive enough from trying to figure out why you are attacking us to justify pouring my effort into it.

I wanted - as I have since I first heard third-hand about your attacks on us - to determine what actual problems might have been experienced during the DNC convergence and I wanted you to talk TO us rather than slinging shit ABOUT us. It's clear that that is not going to happen and, astoundingly, the more we talk the larger the scope of your accusations, the more individuals and organizations that you attack. While I am tempted to pursue this conversation longer just to test how far you are willing to push this tactic of accusing everyone of everything - perhaps next we will discover that the Raging Grannies are prejudiced against older people as well? - that would be amusing but not productive and certainly not worth being call "cop" and "infiltrator" in every other, increasingly incoherent post.

As I have said before and shall say one final time, the entire BTS group can be reached simultaneously by merely sending any actual evidence or information that might lead to actual evidence to blackteasociety on lists.riseup.net . (If you're really worried about uber-secret info leakage or something - frankly, at this point, I've no idea what is cause for worry in your reality - then you can even send encrypted mail to nodnc04 on the hush.com domain.) PLEASE write to them.

BALM has a webpage of its own and it easily contactable. As is the Indymedia Collective - duh! - and the LPC. None of these groups is shadowy or hiding anywhere and every one of them has open meetings or forums to which you could have taken any concerns.

You've known how to contact all these groups - you are even on the FNB list and post regularly! - for a long, long time (and "SOLVE" these accusations as you said at the start of this conversation) .You have not chosen to do so as yet and I have no real hope that you will now, given our record with you in the months since the DNC, but before you go slinging shit about them again on some other random forum perhaps you should talk TO them and avoid the present situation wherein you were talking ABOUT them and what horrible bigots they are and one of us happened to stumble across your attacks on them and waste lots of their time and energy trying to get you - yet again - to talk TO them. At the very least, stop running them down and attacking them until you have chosen to talk to them and given them some chance to face their accuser.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
11 Nov 2004
i didn't see any link.i seem an incompetant liar because i dont' lie. if i'm wrong, than i'm wrong. but i am not lying. not once. not at all. i looked back on that site. and yes, i see the answer link, now-- waaaaaaaaay down in the lower right hand corner of a badly programed frame taht you have to scroll waaaaay down-- along with some other organizations. much of teh anger and nastiness i've been displaying her is in reaction to being repeatedly called a liar by someone who doesn't even know me. i've sacrificed a great deal in my life in order not to lie. i lie only to my bosses in places of employment, as a matter of survival, and even then i can't quite manage it much of the time, and get into employment-ending conflicts all the time as a result. i've lost many dear and important things in my life in order not to lie. so being called a liar repeatedly in a public forum really gets my hackles up. call that a lack of discipline on my part, if you like. i call it a lack of basic human respect on yours.

now, what is your problem with answer again> oh yeah- you haven't told anyone! screaming fuck you is so much more fun! certainly the people i saw who really were from answer has now treated me far far far better than you have-- so how does this behavior you're exhibiting help to discredit them?

the behavior i've seen *is* puerile, childish, etc. its the behavior of a junior high school clique treating all the non-popular people like shit. thats the only way i can think of to describe it. it may well be an age-ist description. i have no further articulation for what i'm seeing. perhaps thats a failure on my part. how would you classify it? a group of mostly younger people treasts a group of mostly older people like garbage, even though they supposed share some pursuit or another in common(protesting, anti-corporatism, etc). do you have a less ageist term for this kind of baiting and taunting and sectarianism? ah, but you're incapable of defining terms other than your own, aren't you? you're likely not able to do it. . .. because you are too blinded by rage.

as i said before, i was not accussing entire organizations. its individuals i see behaving in this manner- not organizations. if this IS an organization, then i'm really frightened for the furture of activism in boston. thus, i didn't go to the black tea society, food not bombs, lpc, or any of these other places as organizations with this problem.the entire balm squad did not call me an fascist old white man-- just one person. why should i then go to the whole balm squad? all the rest of them- all ages- i saw doing absolutely amazing work. why should i call them all out because ONE of them behaved like that? all of food not bombs did not trash-talk this former member at the giant meal preparation- just two people. so i talked to them about it, i had dialouge with them.

but as i say, these things and the others i mentioned form a trend, in my sight, they form a really ugly trend. i've been at a complete loss as to how to bring it up and to whom, and worries over things like your spluttering, enraged, insulting, disrespectful response is one of the BIG reasons why. when i saw a public article about that rally mention the taunting and sectarianism and so forth, i took that moment to put it out before whoever was reading, hoping some kind fo discussion would come up. i was upset about it, and made that clear.. the baiting and taunting and so forth i saw at this rally seems indicidive of everything else i've seen, the culmination of all this shit i've been hearing about and noting.

i asked you if you were an infiltrator because you are behaving like some i knew of. they caused huge damage in my home town, just like you are on your way to doing if you continue behaving like you say you behaved at that rally. i doubt you are one. you are not disicplined enough. but you act exactly the same way. if you behave like an infiltrator trying to do damage to a movement, you will have the same damaging effect as a real one behaving the same way- even if you aren't an infiltrator. not an accusation- a comparison.

shall i expect a witch hunt now for my opposing views? how dare i disagree with the whatever group it is thats doing this shit that seems to have members in all the anti-authoritarian groups in town(funny didn't you just mention that as being suspicious?). how dare i disagree with people shouting fuck you at everything that moves! how dare i call them out on it! who else who's trying to do work around here are you trying to utterly fuck up?

if you have friends/collegues who are capable of human- as opposed to rabid animal- conversation and don't behave like enraged bulls when challenged, who would actualy be useful to talk to about these issues, i'd love for them to contact me. i sure as hell dont' know who to talk to about it-- difficult problem. thats why i posted here, as i say. i certainly hope my mutated email has been stated enough times thats its obvious to a non-spam bot what it is. but obviously it won't be you, unless you go get some therapy or something first. you are still only building hate and making the world in your vicinity lousier, whoever you are- what do you do that doesn't make the world SUCK more? what do you build? what do you hope for? well, thank for throuroughly de-humanising all attempts at communication. this has been throughly disheartening. i won't be responding further on this thread, even though you'll undoubtedly continue to call me a liar and a national frontist and so forth, because i'm sure i've taken up enough and far nmore than enough space trying to cope with your horrifying display of hatred. if you have some strange desire to continue trying to communicate with me, my email is as above. if you know relevant persons to whom i should communicate this information please send them to me and i will. meantime, i will write to the black tea addresses you sent me and direct them to this failed attempt at dialouge.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
11 Nov 2004
katt - you should write an absurdist play. your writing has that completely ridiculous but still readable quality. if you write it, i'd volunteer to act in it.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
11 Nov 2004
Old-A, two points. First, Katt is not the first person to raise issues of cliquishness among folks who are members of the anarchist counter-culture. Certainly, not all members of it act in a way that discriminates against people who aren't part of the counter-culture, but some do. It's not an original complaint and it does seem to be a problem. Second, many people really, honestly do not know that ANSWER, IAC and WWP are all the same group. If you don't have a history of having to deal with sectarian Marxist-Leninist groups (which Katt doesn't seem to have), there is absolutely no reason it would occur to people that ANSWER and IAC were fronts for WWP. Hell, it took me a while to figure out what was going on when I first encountered them and I had dealt with sectarian groups before. They are not obvious about it.
absurdist play
12 Nov 2004
ha! now thats more like it! if i ever write an absurdist play, i'll call you first, hidden temple-- :) though it's only stage woudl likely be a sidewalk or a back roojm or a cramped apartment. . . .heh. . . .

and thank you muskrat, for your balanced critisiscims of both me and old-a. . . .i appreciate your attempts to mediate, really i do. . . and i'm glad to hear that i'm not completely insane and alone in seeing this stuff. . . . .
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
12 Nov 2004
actually, the anarchist black cross did a lot to try to help that kid out, and we were willing to work with the older women to do it. we called him an nlg lawyer, answer didn't.

also, i think stalin is demonstrably worse than bush, and stalinists need to be opposed just as much as the current system does. we organized with them in spain, and we got stabbed in the back. spain and krondstadt, that's all i have to say.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
12 Nov 2004
"i saw tons and tons of exactly what you just did to me goign on at the dnc. i found a man bawling his eyes out on the ground behind a building after some fucking wench from the "convergence" (clique)"

so being ageist is fine, as well as being sexist?
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
12 Nov 2004
Katt,
So which is it, you were

"i saw tons and tons of exactly what you just did to me goign on at the dnc."

or you weren't screamed at.

"no one screamed obscenities at me at the rally. only at others. no one screamed at me."

hidden temple is right. Your writing would be perfect for an absurdist play.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
12 Nov 2004
Milk dud, those two statements don't contradict each other (she didn't say people were screaming at HER during the DNC, but rather, at other people).

Folks, ANSWER is fucked up, but lose the "be vewwy, vewwy quiet--I'm huntin' Stalinists" attitude, okay? I'm young and anarchist and was at the convergence center (as a medic) through the whole DNC and what Katt says she witnessed sounds more or less consistent with what I saw going down. I don't think it was so much BTS as the large contingents of non-local traveler kids the BTS calls happened to attract. But it's a real dynamic in Boston, too, and maybe one we should talk about?

P.S.: ANSWER is really good at duping liberals and unaffiliated folks into supporting them, marching with them, etc. That's what they do. That's why they have so many front groups. Take the woman at her word, and let's work on building something more attractive (and FYI, I'm not above shutting down a WWP sound system or two if the situation calls for it).
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
12 Nov 2004
no one screamed at me *at the rally*-- i feel "screamed at" on this forum.

yes! what is something more attractive that could be built to this organization answer, if ya dont' like it? THATS teh kind fo dialouge i wanna se? what s a BETTER way? what could be BUILT instead?

when i got to the rally i had just come form work. . .. answer had signs for people(since i now know they were all answer sings). . .. they also had a bullhorn, which anyone coudl speak on(i've seen teh same people with this before). are these things people in teh anarchist community coudl provide? and since it was a back-handed way to get me to march "with them" by tyour account(though i'm not sure i see it like that)-- well, you could say, these signs are made by so-and-so, so that people knew what they were holding. . .

just fer instance. . . .

what about coming up with your own chants? the people screaming really didn't like "this is what democracy looks like, etc"-- but if you don't liek it, why not come with your own? a communist group from ohio did most of the chanitng at the dnc. . .. they came prepared. .. .

are there more creative things than the usual sings and chanting?

anyway, that all might be faaaaaarrr more constructive than swearing at random people. . . . . you think? rather than showing how one can be MADDER at answer, how can a group be COOLER than answer-- adn yet co-exist, since they were there, and were clearly not going away--

whatever other disagreements you may have between these two groups, both share teh common assertion that, say, the War is Bad. Might it also be better to work from points of agreement than disagreement in a public rally?
wonderful word choices
12 Nov 2004
"fucking wench"

yep, i'm probably age-ist too. i try to work on it. is it too much to ask taht other people do to? at least i didn't go over and make HER cry. . . . .and she really was behaving like a rabid dog. . . how 'bout "obnoxious shithead"? that prohbably would have been a better choice of words.
and the "kid"
12 Nov 2004
who got arrested--

you did? you worked with eeeevil ladies ostensibley from answer to help someone who got arrested? well, fantastic! there you go! i didn't see it, but i'm glad to hear it happened.

that wasn't so bad was it? was it?
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
12 Nov 2004
That woman who was helping the arrested person wasn't from ANSWER. It's a sign of your own ageism that you think anyone over 25 is ANSWER. Pot, kettle, black.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
12 Nov 2004
And btw mj - want us to stop with the "we're hunting nazis" attitude too? I've seen several posts from Antifa on which I'm sure they'd be more than willing to discuss your proposal that they drop their "attitude." Or maybe you could just go to one of their event which are open to the public and give them your Elmer Fudd impression in person while you tell them this. I'm sure they'll be vewwwy amused.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
12 Nov 2004
but how could they NOT have been from answer?? after all they were carrying answer SINGS!! Just like i must've been, since i was also!! except i'm not! funny, alot of those kids were SCREAMING at those ladies. . . . you mean they WEREN'T in ASNWER??

you see what stupidity this shit causes?? even i'm confused!! just imagine what it would have been like if not one had been screaming FUCK YOU at anyone. . . .or maybe if someof that energy had been channeled(more usefully) towards the cops, or the system, or something more useful--

nazi's? yeah, i've seen a few around-- they are even smaller and more pathetic than all of us. . . . i saw one jogging thru harvard square a few months back-- he was laughabley dumb-assed.i laughed at him out loud. best thing i could have done, he didn't know what to do. . .though i'm sure he's kicked in plenty of heads in his day. . .. but the U.S. Army and its corporate minion mercenaries is kicking in waaaaay more heads than the american nazi party is capable of doing. please channel it at the bulls-eye-- though its true, fighting sectarian battles is ALOT easier than actualy doing something constructive to change the system. and it helps everyone stay cozy in their little clique-ish clubs, too, if no one has to actualy deal with a REAL problem.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
13 Nov 2004
Happy to try to mediate. The web is actually a really rotten place for these conversations--it's really easy to forget the person you're debating is another human being and you end up saying things to them you'd never say in a face-to-face situation. I've done the same thing myself.
To "bleh"
13 Nov 2004
bleh--

I'm in NE Antifa. If you came to our events and met us you'd know that. Thank you for spreading the word, though I really can't make heads or tails of your post.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
14 Nov 2004
katt - your attempts to make friends have gone awry!
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
14 Nov 2004
katt - your attempts to make friends have gone awry!
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
14 Nov 2004
Yes, mj, I did know that already, thank you. Now re-read my post and think about what Antifa would think about your Elmer Fudd impression and telling them to drop their "attitude" with respect to Nazis. Then, ponder why it is hypocritical for a person who spends time organizing against Nazis to talk down to us about our "attitude" with respect to the Stalinists.
Okay whatever "bleh"...
14 Nov 2004
If for some reason you think it's important to attack WWP cadre, knock yourself out. I made this clear in my original post when I said "I'm not above shutting down a WWP sound system or two if the situation calls for it."

Disorganized nazi boneheads beat people of color and folks they think are queer or anarchist/communist--to death. Disorganized Stalinists try to recruit students to sell their newspapers.

Yeah. Stalinists have terrible ideas. That's why they have front groups, and their front groups have front groups, and those front groups don't put their organization's name on the signs they hand out to gullible people at rallies. Stop the "witch hunt" behavior, it's fucking embarassing. I shared your post with friends in Antifa and we had a good laugh at your expense.

People are saying that every example Katt has given of bullshit behavior she's witnessed in Boston is a fabrication, because she was holding a sign that ANSWER printed up. A lot of what she's said sounds more or less in line with things I've seen in Boston. Are people really in denial that some of these elitist dynamics exist? Helloooo...
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
14 Nov 2004
friends? no i'm not too good at that. . . i speak my mind, and it doesn't make me many friends- thoguh teh ones i have know i won't tell them anything i don't believe to be true. but then i was attempting to start dialouge, which is also often not a friend-making activity. . . .though it can be, if done more skillfully than my attempt here - i really don'tcare what anyone thinks about me as long as the work gets done--

besides, mightn't YOU have lost your temper also if someone was calling you a liar, liar, liar, stalinist liar every assertion you made? c'mon, i mean, what if i was like "gee, FRIENDS?? why you must be a member of ANSWER!! yes you ARE you ARE you ARE you LIAR LIAR liAR. . .fuck you fuck you fuck you answer!" i mean, mightn't you lose YOUR temper? just consider it. . . . at all events, i just want to see people NOT treat each other like COMPLETE garbage, you know? jee-zus, what does it get anyone? even if i failed to not treat old-a(whoever it is, god i'm really nervous i'm gonna run into this person on the street and their gonna dance around after for me for blocks and blocks yelling "fuck you! liar! stalinist!" or something)-- even if i got mad and didn't treat this person too swiftly, because i lack discipline, i really would LIKE to see people deal with it when there's exclusivism and sectarianism and so forth-- it makes bad blood, you know? i mean, whether you *like* me or not, you know, i could give a shit-- i just want the boston activist community to be NOT in-fighting enough that it can get something accomplished--

"accomplished" things would be, fer instance, the boston social forum, the continuation of lucy parsons center after two moves, the continuation of food not bombs after eviction, the balm squad making sure people didn't collapse from dehyration, the zeitgeist winning its permit hearings over and over and over-- none of these things happen by screaming fuck you and only working with people you "like". . . least not as i see it. . . maybe its different for you. . . .
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
14 Nov 2004
and thank you mj, i'm glad to hear i'm not compeltely insane or something. . . .(or at least i don't think. . . . )

i'm still trying to find out about answer for mee-self, too(as a matter of principle)-- found "worker's world party". . . where they claim NOT to be stalinists and say that answer is a coaliotion of many groups. this is a signifigant difference from, say, certain sects of maoists, who will come right out and say they dig mao, adn even take "responsibility" for the cultural revolution(genocide)-- where might i find this information that says answer is a stalinist front group, please? i have not iyet foudn it, except in corporate news sources, which also say pretty damning things about anrchists, and anyone else who opposes their yucky world-view-- information source, please? its heavy accusation, and alot of you are making it, i just want to back it up with something, if you don't mind. . . . this would help your case against this group far more(by the way) than screaming and yelling---- but so far, they appear to be democratic socialists, not stalinists. . .. what is the source? i would really like to know, so as not to be "gullible" again. . . . thank you
WAIT never mind found it!
14 Nov 2004
milosevec, authoritarian china, mr. united-states installed saddamn hussein, the wonders of castro, oooh, YUCK YUCK YUCK!! very well, okay, i believe you now, merci'

but people ya don't agree with are gonna show up at anti-war protests--because whatever else they might think, they really don't like wars, and in addition they don't liek corporations- for different reasons, perhaps. . . but they dislike 'em, too. how many anrachists are there in the u.s. right now really? i still hold there's GOT to be a better way to deal with this situation. . ..
Re: disoriented but still swinging
15 Nov 2004
See, that wasn't so hard. Katt, sorry none of us gave you those resources up front. There's also, FYI, a specific history of the WWP fucking things up for radical social movements in Boston, ranging from simply not playing well with others (not respecting consensus processes "on the ground", etc.) to inexcusable levels of opportunism and event-hijacking.

As for your question: right now, for the first time in like 85 years, there are probably more anarchists than Stalinists and Maoists, and maybe even Trots, in the US. I'd like to see it kept that way, though I'm not sure reactive (i.e., protest-based) politics and sectarian turd-hurling are the way to build from here.
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
15 Nov 2004
yah, there seem to be more anarchists than i remember there being before. . . .my experience of activism in cambridge, at least, when i got here in '97 was that there were all these. . . . *individuals* who were kidn fo in many groups. some fo them are still around, alot of them got evicted or have to work alot more hours to afford the jacked up rents now, so i dont' see as many of these peoplea round so much-- but they were very, i don't know, unaffiliated in a way, acting as individuals in groups rather than as group members, if that makes sense. i was drawn to this form of activism because that kind of individualism- which defines itself but is capable of working with groups and other individuals- resonated with me, and seemed to have a particular strength and ccharecter in the old rent-controled cambridge. . . . i haven't really met any other people interested in this particular thing i read about that resonated with me from the 40s-- what mildred loomis called "Decentralism", which strikes me as a kind of communitarian cousin to anarchism. the anarchists i see seem the closest thing to an urban version of this, though, far as they are from it. . . . i've also tended to be cautious about slinging shit about communists, because i don't want to do anything to emulate the red scare, which has been used to discredit all kinds of good and valuable movements over teh years, and because there was a movement of them that wasn't authoritarian. . . . my great grandfather was apparently part of a pre-castro movement in cuba that were democratic socialists(as opposed to toatlitarian ones)-- 'course, he and his fled the country loooong beofre the rest of the cubans because of *their* sectarian in-fighting-- and as a "red" in the u.s. he was treated so badly that his kids grew up to be HUGELY consrvative, almost the stereotypical image of the "cuban catholic republican". i knew people at home who were communists until they found out about stalin killing all those farmers-- i think in some ways they *still* don't know what to do with themselves. . . . the ones in new york in the 30s and 40s seem mostly to have been trade unionists. . .. but i don't know my communist history too well--probably should read up. but actualy, it really was rather difficult to find information about workers world, because "answer" is such a common word that it doesn't work too well as a search term-- and i still wonder if might actualy be people in answer who have no idea that their parent group thinks milosovitch is cool. . .. . since you have to dig through so MANY parent groups to find it. . .just as i didn't know that nodraftnoway.org was an answer affiliated group. . .. but you might know better than i-anyway. . . .
Re: Post-Election Protest in Copley: Boston Activists Disoriented, but Still Swinging
16 Nov 2004
thank you pete!! i read teh whole thing, and now i finally know what this was all about--

although i STILl think shreiking and yelling fuck you at people in teh same protest is a baaaaad idea, and i stil think we should look at their good organizing tactics(bring signs for people to carry, making banners, handing otu literature to passers by) and leave teh bad(taking credit for things they didn't do, having a bunch of seemingly unconnected front groups, not using thei real name)-- and that this might be a more effective way to counteract it--OR having our own tactics-- i thought skipping back and forth across teh street-- somethign NOEN of teh answer people seemed interested in doing-- was an excellent way to demonstrate teh difference between the aithoritarian way and teh anti-authoritarian way without behaving really badly and making the people who disagree with answer look bad and bringing confusing messages to the protest for folks who know nothing about this whole thing-- in fact, if there were a way to be like "well, we really dislike this group ANSWER here, but even though we dont' like 'em, we're all stabnidng on this corner here because ALL of us think this situation is ALL wrong. . . .". . . .

i looked on my own and didn't find this link-- thank you once again, pete-- just think if a certain someone who insisted on screaming and yelling and calling me a lying stalinist had sent me this link in the FIRST place. . . jeeeez-- uusss h. christ on a saltine cracker, yeesh. . . .