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News :: Race
Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
18 Aug 2005
"We expect it to be pretty quiet," one of the officers said."

"There was also the ubiquitous anti-Israel protestor waving a Palestinian flag at the entrance to the memorial, something that has started to help me find the location of these events...

A few seconds into the moment of silence, a call pierced the air: "Free, Free Palestine! Free, Free Palestine!" The anti-Israel protestors had interrupted the moment of silence, shocking us out of our rememberance and immediately helping us to understand the kind of extreme radicals with whom we were dealing.

The entire event was marred by these hecklers, who shouted "From the river, to the sea, Palestine will be free!"
-
A small group of activists gathered in Newton last Thursday to oppose a large Zionist rally organized under the front of a "vigil for victims of terror".

When I first arrived at city hall I noticed the organizers from a rabidly pro Israeli group unfurling Israeli flags and setting up a large PA on the steps of city hall. Two activists had already established themselves and reported contact with the police and some insults from passing drivers. We agreed that Newton and Brookline are a hotbed of Zionism.

The several officers there seemed agitated and more arrived as quickly as did the busses full of crowd stuffers. The sergeant came over and gave us “the talk“ which I ignored. We made some signs and chatted it up with a local reporter, a curious rally member or two and Newton’s finest.
One activist dropped right in and asked loudly and repeatedly from near the podium why there were no Arabs present considering the terror they are enduring in Iraq and Palestine. He was figuritivly spit out like a bite from a rotten apple.

As the speeches began we crept over to listen up to the usual occupier’s manufacture of victim hood mythology. The drama was being laid on as thick as the summer night air so we jumped in with a refreshing burst of reality.
“Free Free Palestine”.
“From the river to the sea Palestine will be free”.
”1234 occupation no more! 5678 Israel is an apartheid state!”.
“Qalquila, Talkarem, Jenin, Nablus and Balata” were our additions to the victims of occupations terror which seemed to have been overlooked by the organizers.

A couple of pro settler t shirt wearing men came over to us screaming “Kill all the Arabs!, Kill all the Arabs!”. They received an escort back to their comrades from they boys in blue and nothing more for their reveling out burst.
Could you imagine what would happen if some shouted “kill all the Jews”. Surprisingly some one did! From the JCRC podium limelight no less. As we were being forced back for chanting I heard a speaker ranting about how someone known as “they” wanted to ‘kill all the Jews in the world’. Amazingly the crowd seems to accept that assertion.

Soon our constitutional rights expired and were in full retreat under a police attack. Arguing principle with the cops bought a few moments and a breather from their forearms but proved pointless.

I need to make this clear. At a propaganda rally protected from dissent by police violence the Mayor of newton presided over a crowd waving foriegn flags some of who were screaming for the extermination of scores of millions of people based on their race. Does that ring a bell?

Three officers picked me up and carried me across commonwealth ave as a detective stopped traffic. Some one said they recognized the plain clothes officer as a protest surveillance team member. The rally thinned out so we wrapped it up after a brief discussion of the action and solidarity during dispersal.
-

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Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
18 Aug 2005
Vigil for terror victims goes on despite protest
By Karla Hailer-Fidelman/ Correspondent
Wednesday, August 17, 2005

As Jews in Newton and around the world prepared for Tish B'Av - the sacred observance of the destruction of the Temples - the Jewish Community Relations Council of Boston held its annual candlelight vigil to commemorate victims killed by terrorist acts in Israel.

Approximately 200 people attended the ceremony was held last Thursday evening, Aug. 11, on the steps of the War Memorial behind Newton City Hall. However, what was meant to be a solemn ceremony of remembrance and solidarity heated up like the night air, when a handful of protesters tried to disrupt things from the corner of Commonwealth Avenue.


Before the ceremony started, three protesters stood on the corner holding handmade signs with slogans such as "Free Palestine." There were later joined by two or three others. One had a Palestinian flag in one hand and a sign in the other. A protester complained about the "heavy police presence," indicating the four officers standing halfway between the two groups.

"We expect it to be pretty quiet," one of the officers said.

A man came over to discuss the plans regarding the disengagement of the Gaza with them, but one protester was quick to point out why he believed it to be a sham. As the conversation continued, he offered the man a protest sign. He declined, indicating he was with the JCRC group.

Shortly after that, the ceremony began with the reading of more than 1,000 names of victims. As the reading began, the protesters began to chant. As the speaker asked for a moment of silence, one of the protesters yelled out: "Enough silence! End the occupation." A man bearing an Israeli flag became angry, but officers intervened and the man returned to the ceremony.

Nancy Kaufman, the executive director of JCRC, came to the podium to speak of bombings and other acts of terror that have occurred in Israel.

"Terror threatens safety and security of Jews around the world," she said.

Mayor David Cohen also spoke, at times raising his voice as two of the protesters began to chant louder.
"Just as we persevered through the tyrants of old, so will we persevere through the tyrants of today," he said. He then delivered a set of remarks in Russian before translating them.

"One day all Israel will live in peace," he said, "and even those who hate us will join us and dance in the streets in celebration of peace."

Michael Simon from Harvard-Radcliffe Hillel in Cambridge told the story of his girlfriend, Marla Ann Bennett, who was killed in the cafeteria at Hebrew University three years ago when a bomb left in a backpack on a table exploded. As he told her story, the protesters grew louder. Simon raised his voice and, at times, fought to control his emotions as he continued on to explain why he was telling the tale of someone else's life.


"She could have been your daughter, your friend," he said. "She could have been your niece, or the girl next door."

He said he had been planning to propose to Bennett. The next day, they were to leave for San Diego to meet her family, and he planned to ask Bennett's grandmother for her ring, so he could propose to Bennett in the spot of their first date when they returned to Israel. Instead, he accompanied her body back to San Diego, meeting her family at her funeral instead of in celebration. He continued on to tell the story of taking a group of college students to Israel and celebrating the end of Shabbat on the balcony of their hotel. He said that it was at that point that it became clear to him, "they [the terrorists] took Marla away, but they did not win," he said.

After the last speaker, the group was led in a prayer of remembrance. As the prayer began, the protesters attempted again to disrupt the ceremony by making a megaphone out of one of the poster boards and chanting. The police then escorted the protesters across the street and stood with them until the prayer had finished. As the crowd began to sing "Hatikvah," the Israeli national anthem, the protesters again tried to disrupt things with chanting. Finally, after the last names were read and people began to leave, someone yelled in response to one of the protest chants, "Why don't you get a life?" causing a burst of laughter.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Zionist blog entry about the rally...

"There was also the ubiquitous anti-Israel protestor waving a Palestinian flag at the entrance to the memorial, something that has started to help me find the location of these events...

A few seconds into the moment of silence, a call pierced the air: "Free, Free Palestine! Free, Free Palestine!" The anti-Israel protestors had interrupted the moment of silence, shocking us out of our rememberance and immediately helping us to understand the kind of extreme radicals with whom we were dealing."

http://allishapira.blogspot.com/2005/08/from-river-to-sea.html

------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the action call..

Please join us in remembering the victims of occupation in Palestine and Iraq.

Thursday August 11th 7:00-9:00pm Newton City Hall Commonwealth ave. Newton.

Many friends of Palestine will be gathering on Thursday to remember the victims from the past 57 years of occupation and ethnic cleansing. From the massacres in dar yassin to the assassinations, home demolitions and raids in Gaza and the west bank, the constant terrorism of occupation grinds on unnoticed in America.

On Thursday a rabidly pro apartheid Israeli group will use Newton City Hall to celebrate the lives of the settlers and soldiers lost while colonizing Palestine.

As right wing TV and radio propagandists are feverously screaming for the neo cons dream war with Iran and Syria the JCRC will lead the ideological charge in Newton by defaming and demonizing the residents of the middle east who are forced to defend their homes from ongoing occupation and ethnic cleansing.

More and more activists are wakening up to the reality that it will be impossible to get US troops out of the middle east (alive) as long as the US government and its so called opposition is directed by racist Zionism.

Join us on Thursday for a loud and liberating demonstration to remember those lost and those still in the struggle from Iraq to Palestine.

Please bring a candle for every life, village, house, well, refugee’s child, olive tree and hope killed by the occupation.

Free Palestine!
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionism Action in Newton
18 Aug 2005
I forgot that as we were debriefing in front of city hall after everyone cleared out two girls in a brand new black SUV pulled up and asked if they could interview us for a video. No big deal except that after I drove someone home into the city I pulled over to grab a slice of pizza and noticed the same two girls driving by slowly looking for something. I thought "wow what a coincidence" and ran over to tell them where they could find a parking spot which is what I thought they were on the look out for but in retrospect I wonder.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
18 Aug 2005
Seems to me that you who attended the protest are not anti-zionist, but anti-semites. This was not a pro-Israel rally, it was a religious Jewish event that you disrupted. That is different than a pro-Israel event, you do realize that, right? It was to memorialize dead people, who innocently died.

You people are no different than those pigs who show up at funerals with signs that say God Hates Fags. Shame on you.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
18 Aug 2005
Does IMC have a policy of removing zionist posts?
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
18 Aug 2005
No. And why should it? Zionism is just as diverse as socialism, anarchism, communism or any other political ideology. There are even Zionist organizations in the US and Israel that are pro-peace.

http://www.peacenow.org
re: editorial policy
18 Aug 2005
to quote the Boston IMC editorial policy, posts that will be "hidden" in a public space include:

1. Hate posts; posts that explicitly express sexism, racism, homophobia, or other forms of prejudice.
2. Threats of Violence.

So far, the posts to this article, including the parent article itself, are well rounded and display a good dose of personal opinion.

That's what the IndyMedia movement is all about, last I checked. This site is a public forum for "radical, passionate, and accurate tellings of truth". We all see specific events and situations in our own unique way - these posts present several different opinions on a similar topic. Not hate-mongering or preaching violence. Talking about a topic from several different perspectives so's we can all get a better understanding of the topic at hand. I see nothing worth hiding here and alot that's worth further discussion.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
18 Aug 2005
Uhmm no. Zionism as the political nationalism of Israel, a state that is fundamentally racist. Israel admits citizenship automitically to anyone of jewish ancestry, and yet denies it to palestineans who live within its borders. Sounds familiar to the repatriation of germans under hitler, no?

Just on that one basis alone, that people of a certain creed are given extra rights under the law, ignoring all of the other aspects, israel and thus zionism is racist. And is thus banned by almost all other IMCs.

Refer to Ariel Natan Panko (sic?) for a clear example.
whoa is me, have i upset you?
18 Aug 2005
Unlike your racisct and relideous intolerances, I forgive you.
I forgive you for running over people with your plows, tanks, and weak minded fear.
I forgive you for your dramatic lies, false teachings, and lack of empathy.
I forgive you for letting troops die , starve and burn in the desert, violating the geneva convention.
I forgive you for endorsing, pressuring, blackmailing, producing, war, weapons, "self defense", and playing the media card.
I DO NOT FORGIVE YOU FOR NOT SEEING PAST YOUR OWN NOSE.
I do not forgive you for causing the west to pay higher gas prices, I do not forgive you for emulating our society and pretending to be US citizens and voting here from there and still sucking 12billion dollars per year, while we have to trim back, work harder and hear you whine about loosing the "promised" land.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
19 Aug 2005
Just for the record, Boston Indymedia does not automatically hide Zionist posts or posts by anyone of any particular political perspective. We hide posts when they violate our editorial policy http://boston.indymedia.org/mod/info/display/policy/index.php . (I suggest reading it before you post.) In this case, Oliver's generalizations about Palestinians seems racist and therefore I've hidden it as a policy violation (as well as the anti-Semitic comments made in response).
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
19 Aug 2005
Kudos to you, Zorro. I just wish you left all the comments up so people could see the hatred masquerading as anti-Zionism. But, as they say, rules is rules, so I will respect them.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
19 Aug 2005
so long as you're removing posts, zorro, you might want to remove the one in this thread by the author "save-america-deport-a-rabbi." that seems to qualify as anti-semitic, no? insert "germany" for america, and this author would do well in 1930's nazi europe.
Foul Ball!
19 Aug 2005
Note: This thread is being censored by an IMC "member" named Zorro. There is no Zorro registered in the BIMC database or so named in the development lists.

Since Zorro refers to a masked rogue, I am forced to say that a masked rogue at BIMC is censoring the thread, and that BIMC is not open about its whimsical editors.

Censorship of this thread was for reasons "other." This means that not only does the crypto-censor wish to remain anonymous, but he also wishes his reasoning to remain anonymous.

I certainly hope that "Zorro" will be at the next IMC general meeting this Sunday. I would like to know who this person thinks he is.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
19 Aug 2005
wait, what's it mean jameson? that's disturbing if it's someone other than the proper administrator censoring this. i recognize the admin's authority to do so, but is someone hacking this system? i think you're a bigot, jameson, but i think your words should be heard...and not censored by an outsider.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
19 Aug 2005
people need to chill out (no, really!) Just because all anti-semites are anti-zionists does not mean that all anti-zionists are anti-semites. moreover i dont think its that hard for people to tell when someone is making an anti-semitic as opposed to purely anti-zionist remark. If not, then perhaps those concerned should be educating people about zionism as well as anti-semitism. and please don't pretend there aren't plenty of Jewish anti-zionists, including the group calling itself Torah-true Jews, who consider zionism heretical.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
19 Aug 2005
no one has yet addressed my original point that it was inappropriate to disrupt a religious ceremony remembering victims of terror. people at this event might have lost loved ones...and i don't really think it's fair or appropriate to devalue their losses because one disagrees with the politics of the deceased. i mean, would anyone protest at the funeral of a serial killer? no. because their families should have a right to quietly grieve, even if their relative was a bad person.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
19 Aug 2005
i think the point may be that having your home bulldozed before your eyes is more rude than having a religious service disrupted, so as a tactic, you can't really fault it. also, can we be certain that this was a simple religious ceremony, or if politics were involved? sounds like it was a pretty partisan crowd, no?
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
19 Aug 2005
a valid point, zed. let me run this by you...

from the article, i can glean 2 purposes for the event: 1. a religious commemmoration; 2. remembering civilians killed by terrorists.

in honesty, i am not sure if the people lost loved ones. i am sure, however, that no one that protested was sensitive enough to check first. we can agree on that, right? i think we can also agree that there is no evidence that this was a "zionist" action as proposed in the title. jews gathering to remember a religious event and victims of terror is NOT "zionist."

next, i'm going to be patronizing and quote my kindergarten teacher: two wrongs don't make a right. terrorist acts are never ok - whether done by israeli or arab. slamming people for remembering victims of terrorism is wrong. the israelis do not have clean hands, but that doesn't automatically mean that the palestinians do. don't forget - there are babies getting killed by suicide bombers by palestinians. those victims - both jew and arab - should be remembered, and their senseless deaths should not be diminished to make a political point.

alternatively, if you view this even as purely commemmorating a religious event that occurred nearly 2000 years ago, it would be inappropriate to protest that too. if it weren't, based on this precedent, next christmas, we should protest in front of churches because of the awful things christians have been responsible for in the world in the last two millenia.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
20 Aug 2005
It defenitely is zionst. So let's follow your supposition. They were gathered to remember 'victims of terror'. Why is it that their list included both jews and drues who were killed by palestinean terrorism, but left out palestineans killed by Israeli terrorism? The only logical solution is that they feel that Israeli violence isn't terrorism, and thus is justified.

If they believe that israeli violence is justified, they are zionist. QED.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
20 Aug 2005
I'm Anti-Zionist.

But when the White Pride groups came to Boston, I was there.
When someone painted a swastika on the wall of a Jewish owned business where I used to live, I helped paint over it.
When I went to the Holocaust Museum in DC, I felt physically ill at the horrible atrocities done to the Jewish people.

I am not anti-semetic. I am anti-fascist.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
20 Aug 2005
dex, any time you want to protest christmas give me a call and i'll be right there with you. :)

i don't think that its helpful, though, to muddle an already poorly understood issue with unfounded charges of bigotry. there are many legitimate reasons to criticize zionism. when the response to this criticism is to immediately accuse the critic of harboring jew-hatred, it gives the impression that the accuser can't offer a proper response to valid criticism.

its never easy to accept ones faults, and i understand that the existence of real hate groups puts people even more on the defensive. if we want true peace and understanding, though, important issues cannot be ignored or dismissed by inappropriately invoking and cheapening the very serious and damaging specter of anti-semitism.

the level of America's commitment to Israel can only be justified if there is a real dialogue that eschews hysteria and propaganda in favor of honest debate. but both sides have to play for that game to succeed.

moreover, the constant insinuation that leftists are by their nature anti-semitic must end. the political left is indebted to a number of great thinkers who happened to be jewish, including not only karl marx but even further back a jew named jesus took power to task for its corrupting influence on the soul. finally, we are one with our jewish brothers and sisters fighting for justice within Israel--as those of us fighting Bush at home know, dissent is often a lonely road.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
20 Aug 2005
craig: i think they didn't remember the arab victims of terror because they're not arabs. the same way the vietnam wall doesn't list all the dead vietnamese. because it's an american wall. well, this is an event put on by a synagogue. i'm pretty sure the arabs aren't members.

good post, zed. i agree with you. just one question: when was the last time someone on this board condemned palestinians for blowing up children? everyone seems to feel free to point out the dirty hands on the israeli side, but i'm the only one that points out that the acts of the palestinians are murderous. a suggestion: there are all sorts of pro-arab/palestine rallies that are mentioned on this board. let's mobilize and protest their bombing israeli school children and the widespread support the murder of children gets in the arab community.

as for chip: it's good you went to that protest, but your defensiveness is like the racist guy who defends his use of the term n!gger by saying "i have black friends!" the fact that you have to say it proves the point.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
20 Aug 2005
You miss my point dex. They remember arabs and drues (also non-jews) who are victims of suicide bombers. Thus it's not just jews that they remember.

And I find it odd that in your trip to the holocaust museum you weren't disgusted by the lack of acknowelegment of the 6-10 million other people killed by the nazis (Romas, Commies, Queers, Handicapped, Slavs). What marginal space the Roma are given in the museum is a result of a lawsuit.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
20 Aug 2005
i am missing your point craig. i'd like to understand though - could you say it another way, because i don't get it.

as an aside, i'm not sure if you're confusing me with someone else - i've never been to the holocaust museum, nor have i ever said i had. as an aside, i'm well aware that the nazis victimized a lot of groups beyond jews.

finally, what's a "drue?"
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
20 Aug 2005
Druze, Druz, Druse
singular or plural noun
1. A people, or a member of a people, inhabiting chiefly a mountainous district in the south of Syria, whose religion is an offshoot of Islam but contains doctrines drawn from other sources, including a belief in the transmigration of souls.
adj 1. Belonging or relating to this people or their religion.

Etymology: 18c: perhaps from Darazi, an early exponent of the religion.

The druze are a minority arab population some of who work for the occupation as soliders, border patrol and police.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
21 Aug 2005
Zionism is the murderous theft of palestinian lands. Suprizingly, some people are shocked that murderous theft created the hatred that comes back at the murderous thieves in the form of terrorism, and they scapegoat the victims of the offense for fighting back. In the current intifada, over 180 palestinians were killed by Zionists before a tiny fraction of a percent of the Palestinians responded with a suicide attack.

I find weeping for ZIonists killed in thier war of conquest about as meaningfull as weeping for white invadors of native American lands getting scalped.

Well duh, murderous theft of your neighbor's homeland usually does produce a violent responce.

What other tribe of people ever engadged in murderous theft of thier neighbor's homeland and then tried to scapegoatthier victims? White invadors of the Americas did. Nazis did. Now, Zionists do.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
21 Aug 2005
Troll,

Thank you for your nearly illiterate words. Which Aryan Nations pamphlet supplied you with those facts?
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
21 Aug 2005
Dex.

Dex.

Do you have an actual point to make??? or are you just attacking the messanger because you can't attack the message??? Well, that is a waisted question, isn't it. Your attack on my spelling makes it clear to anyone who can rub to brain cells together. And it would be -nearly literate- not "nearly illiterate". Sheesh what a fucking moron. See? See how pointing out your foibles doesn't make you look any more pathetic than pointing out how you have nothing of substance and resort to attacking the messanger instead?

"Aryan nations"??? Is there some reason for you to suggest that only white supreamist/seperatist (whatever) have the intalectual capacity to understand that Hebrews spending 183 years to slaughter and enslave the locals 3000 years ago does NOT give ZIonists ANY birthright of murderous theft of Palestinian lands??? Oh yes, you were just trying to attack the messanger again, weren't you??? If anyone says that hebrews being murderous thieves does NOT give ZIonists thier alleged birthright of murderous theft of Palestinian lands, you try to slander them. Pathetic and pathological. Don't you have ANY substance to add to your position? Are you truely so void of actual substance that you resort to forcing negative reinforcement coersion onto ANYONE who disagrees with your belief that hebrews once being murderous thieves of the land give ZIonists a birthright of murderous theft of the land TOO???

Please, show us how shallow you are, again.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
21 Aug 2005
First off, you are "nearly illiterate," meaning that you border on illiteracy. Secondly, "truely" is not a word, "truly" is. Try spell check.

As for you saying I have "no point": my point is posted above, which is to say that the protestors in Newton wrongly saw fit to protest a religious event. The event in Newton was the celebration of a religious holiday and a memorial for victims of terror. Do you deny that there are arab terrorists murdering children in Israel? Do you deny that it is appropriate to remember the death of babies waiting with their mothers at bus stops because some arab pig slaughtered them?

As an aside, I am not just making ad hominem attacks. Both Craig and Chip made their points (with which I disagree) articulately and constructively. I responded and asked questions, and anticipate that they will do the same. Your point was neither articulate nor constructive. In fact, the narrow point I could discern sounded like racist drivel (hence the Aryan Nations reference).

As for your revisionist history, how do you respond to the fact that the word "palestinian" was made up in 1967 and the arabs living in Israel were mere nomads wandering across the land. They saw Israel was going to be successful because of western support and, like magic, they laid claim to the land. Hmmm. Well, I lay claim to Trump Tower. Think that makes my claim legitimate? No, it doesn't.

Ever read Mark Twain's account of his trip to the Middle East? He went in the 1800s and talks about how Jerusalem was full of Jews and there were barely any arabs. I'm sure the pamphlet you read told you that Israel became a state in 1948. That means that a century before it achieved statehood, there were Jews there. If you believe the bible - at least as a historical document - you'd know that Jews were there thousands of years ago...but not arabs.

In closing, If you have trouble making out my words, don't be afraid to move your lips when you read. If you continue to have problems at that point, let me know and I'll try to find a phonics book for you.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
21 Aug 2005
As a related aside, where do those of you who think the Israelis should cede Israel propose that they go?

Should they share the land, or do they not have the right to live there at all? If not, where should they go?
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
21 Aug 2005
"some arab pig "?

i think that comment should be hidden--it's quite ugly.

And Dex, what's wrong with Jews not living in Israel? Not every people has a homeland who would like one. Are we to partition all the land in the world based on the claims made in anyone's ancient mystical books? And if the people who worship the words in those ancient mystical books sympathize with an illegal occupation, then they can't be too surprised when opponents of that occupation make a point of protesting at their events. it's like protesting Bob Jones University--you dont do it because theyre christian, you do it because they are over-the-top religious zealots and/or bigots.

have terrible things been done in the name of jew hatred? yes. have terrible things been done in the name of Zionism? Yes. the truly religious person should condemn both equally.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
21 Aug 2005
Dex,

Well, I could have said I have Jewish friends (which I do), and even Jewish relatives, but I agree that such a thing is the same as, "I have black friends" excuse. For me, it isn't a matter of religion of race, but rather policy. I don't want any harm to come to anyone, and I don't agree with suicide bombings OR air strikes and bulldozings, but I've studied the history of that region of the world, and have made my decision based on it. You're also entitled to yours, and I think everyone could make a lot of progress if we could all have a normal conversation about our views, rather then rhetoric and trolling.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
21 Aug 2005
zed,

anyone that suicide bombs children is a pig. they're worse than a pig. do you disagree? there are awful people of every race and religion, it's just that arabs are the ones doing the suicide bombing in the discussion at hand. that's why i used the term. i do not believe all arabs are pigs; just the ones who are terrorists or support terrorists.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
21 Aug 2005
chip, as for the jews not living in israel...let me ask you this, what would you do with them? try this hypothetical: you're the king of the world, it's 1948, 6 million jews have been massacred after hundreds of years of persecution across europe where every single nation has treated them with the worst of disdain. their neighbors stole their land during the war (literally - the titles to their homes were transferred and the items stolen from their homes redistributed), so they have nothing to go back to. they have no possessions, no homes and their families are decimated. the u.s. won't take them. the russians and poles hate them almost as much as the the nazis. in fact, no one wants them. so what do you do with them?

there was an alternative: a place the jews have always believed is their home (keep in mind, the zionist movement began long before WW2, and many jews had already returned there). it's relatively uninhabitated, and those inhabitants are mostly jews. virtually the only arabs in israel are nomads (who in 1967 somehow decided they were a "people" and called themselves "palestinians") traveling from other arab lands. it's a barren desert, so it doesn't hurt anyone's colonial interests.

what do you do with the jews? send them back to germany? hmmm, i don't think i'd sleep well at night pulling a trainload of emaciated jews out of auschwitz and telling them we found them nice, pretty new homes...in germany!

seems to me, israel was the right choice.

so what would you have done?
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
21 Aug 2005
zed,

i agree with your point (and i quote: "have terrible things been done in the name of jew hatred? yes. have terrible things been done in the name of Zionism? Yes. the truly religious person should condemn both equally.")

my question to you: when was the last time you publicly protested terrorism committed by arabs?
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
21 Aug 2005
as a follow up for chip...

after you've decided what you would have done in 1948 if you were king of the world, please advise what should be done right now. should the jews leave? where should they go? if they shouldn't leave, what precisely should they do? if they do what you suggest (e.g. leave west bank), how should they respond if hamas continues to suicide bomb their children?
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
22 Aug 2005
First off, my spelling sucks, not my reading in the slightest, and an a- inspelling. I am nearly literate. Not incapable of reading and writing. but I guess ylu missed my point, that you attacked me as something (?, you don;t have the balls to explain) akin to aryan nations. AND the attack on my spelling....well, your trying to worm your way out of that stunck up pretty badly.

"Wrongly saw fit to protest a religious event". A religuious event???? How a religious event. ZIonist feel bad about a temple, built by cananite slave locals, being destroyed. Religious??? Feeling bad about Jews/judeans being kicked out of the land hebrews murdered and enslaved locals to steal? Religious??? And no, since the tiny fraction of a percent of Palestinians who resond to the Zionist's murderous theft of Palestinian lands with violence are acting under the extream duress of ZIonist offenses, extenuating circomstances would clear them of ANY murder charges under the laws we demand for our own protection. People who engadge in murderous theft of thier neighbor's homeland neither expect nore deserve PEACE. If I and my friends and family were to do to Costa Ricans what ZIonists did and continue o do to palestinians, the last thing i would expect would be PEACE. I would expect to burrey many of my friends and family until I too was burried.

Neither articulate (but you found time to attack it) nor constructive (and you define constructive as leading to the victims of ZIonist offenses appeasing the Zionist offenses as constuctive, right?) Wow, I am not your savior, so you get to attack my post (not me, you don't know me at all). Shit, what an ego you have to consider your popst worthy of consideration, since you obviously ARE our savior.

Revisionist history??? RE-vision. History is conducted by RE-SERCH.RE-VISION doesn't sound too far removed, now does it???

Yes, Palestinian is a made up word. here is another for you: American. Yep, just as made up as Palestinian, And Israel for that matter. odd that you would argue that lables mean a damned thing. No, on second thought, you ahve shown us your propensity to attack people in the metaphisical sence. Denouncing them because they don't have a lable that suits you.But just like "americans", palestnians are real people, no matter what they choose to call themselves or when.they could call themselves "buttnuggets" and call thier homeland "the ass" And zionist crusaders STILL wouldn't have a birthright of mruderous theft of even 1 single rock in Palestine, or anywhere else for that matter, not even costa rica.

No palestinians have stayed in the land constant. Turks kept census records for taxation and inscription and the lowest the palestinian population ever was under thier rule was 350000 in 1785. And I suppose christian crusaders were not killing real locals because palestine is a made up word. Good GOD! You say lables makes a differance??? Is that right, or did you have some other point when yopu parroted out the Zionist's lies.

Mark Twain??? Are you serious. A fiction writer??? Am i to ignore that censuses taken by turks seeking taxes and buy into a tourist who was led around by ZIonsts.

Yes, Jews lived in Palestine. And they live in Boston. Would you like to tell us how Jews living in Boston would give Zionists a birthright of murderous theft of the place??? No? I thought not. Hebrew invadors once ruled the land, and the locals they enslaved, and there was a Jewish minority in the land (3.5%), so Zionist have a birthright to just move in, take over, steal what they can, MURDER anyone who resist, or is just in the wrong place, route the breaving widows and orphans of the ZIonist crusade into the wilderness, and 20 years later, invade the wilderness as well, to continue with more murderous thetf of more and more palesitnian lands. SHIT! you sound like a NAZI. That is the same bullshit rationalization NAZIS used when they invaded Czechoslovakia. Germans ruled the land under the holy roman empire and there was a german minority in the Sudaten moutains. Holy shit! What'sd it like to be outed as sharing the moral ethics of murderous thieving Nazis in such an undenyable way. PLEASE, keep writing. Nothing succeds like success. Make your points. make this easy.

And of course, as you close you attack my spelling, even to the point of suggesting that I can't read either. Wow, are you such a flacid date.

Where should murderous thieving Zionist crusaders go??? OUT of the Palestinian's homeland. Duh. Anything less would NOT be liberation of Palestine. sheesh, what a moron.

Taking Jews out of Auschwitz and sending them to germany. Odd, Anne franks father did just that. Rather than be liberated by Soviets, he chose to walk back to germany with the Nazis. Many stayed, but he wanted to return to his homeland, which he knew he never could do if Soviats liberated him.

Where would they go? who cares where murderous thieves go? In the current intifada, over 400000 Zionists bugged out and left Zionist occupied Palestine and all the hostilities that the ZIonist's bloodasoaked crusade created. Many returned here to the US where thier anscestors aided the alleged Christians in the murderous theft f these lands. Even though I hate the idea of known murderous thieves comming to the US, they are American citizens and have that right. As for te rest, they can apply for citizenship, and if they don;t get it, they can apply for citizenship in Haiti for all I care. it is not like murderous thiving Zionists deserve anything better than to live as poorly as haitians.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
22 Aug 2005
Palestinians speek arabic. but after the Arab muslims kicked the roman byzantine masters out, the Arab muslims left. We know that because the Arab Muslims then proceaded to kick the roman byzantines out of Lebanon, Syria, etc. And it took the locals 200 years to adopt Arabic as thier language. SInce the only "Arabs" who need to learn Arabic are babies, it is pretty obvious that palestinians are not Arabs, even if they call themselves Arabs.

And if you were a Christian, you would know that the biblical "Israel" "has sleep in thier eyes and know NOT of thier past" while ZIonists claim that hebrews being murderous thieves of the land gives them a birthright of murderous theft of the land too. The biblical "Israel" also "keeps the covenant", a covenant that states that those kicked out of GOD'S land are to assimilate with those into who's lands they moved (how else could they have sloeep in thier eyes ad know NOT of thier past?). You seem to bitch about a Syrians and lebanese joining the establish Palestinian communities. Where do you think the lost tribes of ISRAEL went???

It is by thier fruits that you shall know them, even if Izonists did hijack the name Israel. And by supporting the ZIonist's bloodoaked war of conquest, you treat your palesitnians neighbors (even the least of God's children, at least in your eyes) as you would not have them treat you. Why pretend that you follow the Christ? Why not just be honest with yourself and call yourself a satanist?
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
22 Aug 2005
I'm sure everyone's just dying to hear my opinion, so I'm going to stick in my two cents.

Tish'a B'av is not a holiday, it is an anti-holiday; a day of mourning to commemorate the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 C.E.

The event in Newton was not a religious event. It was yet another example of the mainstream American Jews hijacking a perfectly good, fun, healthy religion and turning it into a sorry excuse of a bland and boring Christianity without the Christ.

Give me back my heritage!
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
22 Aug 2005
Greg, please educate yourself. Israel is not "fundamentally racist", it is the most democratic country in the region. Sure it has its share of problems but the situation is much better in Israel--for Arabs and Jews--than any country in the Middle East.

Israel is a multi-party democracy with left, right and center parties. Israel has free trade unions and a plethora of human rights organizations. Israel has two official languages--Arabic and Hebrew. Muslims can worship freely in Israel, there is no lack of mosques in the country. Christians, Buddhists, Hinuds, etc. are all free to worjip the way they please in Israel. Try worshipping a God besides Allah in the Muslim countries.

Israel is not the only country that bases citizenship on ethnicity, many of Muslim countries are similar e.g. Indonesia. For some reason people get mighty upset when Israel bases citizenship on ethnicity but we hear not so much as a peep out of these same people when other countries do exactly the same thing. Why is that?

The separation barrier is another case in point. Morocco has been building a wall that cuts into Western Sahara for years. The far left has never been outraged by this land grab. Not a single protest has been organized to the best of my knowledge. Why?

But to the point:

Zionist ideology is as diverse as any form of nationalism as well as the various--and at times competing--forms of anarchism, socialism and communism.

Another point in which you are wrong, Greg, Zionism is not the nationalism of "Israel" but the Nationalism of the Jewish people, globally.

And no, Greg, "Zionism" is not banned by "almost all the other IMCs". Only the lunatic-fringe: Nessie at SF-IMC, the editors in Oregon, and a few others take this position.

Lastly, Ariel Natan Panko (Pasko?) is a complete crackpot. Nuff' said...

Right on ZED!

"Just because all anti-semites are anti-zionists does not mean that all anti-zionists are anti-semites."
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
22 Aug 2005
sholom,

a "holiday" is a day to commemorate or celebrate a particular event. it needn't be "fun." for example, yom kippur is another jewish holiday, and that's anything but "fun" for jews.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
22 Aug 2005
anyone out there agree with "the troll?"

troll: where should us murderous american thieves go (we who stole the native americans' land)?
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
22 Aug 2005
sholom,

a "holiday" is a day to commemorate or celebrate a particular event. it needn't be "fun." for example, yom kippur is another jewish holiday, and that's anything but "fun" for jews.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
22 Aug 2005
The ZIonist crusader state is a democracy. And how does that give ZIonists thier alleged birthright of murderous theft of ANY portion of the Palestinian's homeland? Like the allied soldiers risked and lost thier lives to liberate Europeans from Nazis because they were a dictatorship??? Or was it because nazis were murderous thieves of thier enighbor's homelands???

It is better for Arbaic speeking Palestinians than other Arabic lands are for thier people. Well, then, I guess because Polish slavs were better off that Eukrainians starving under stalin's rule means Nazis were not murderous thieves of Polish lands and had a right to occupy Poland. Bullshit! Oh well, at least we can expect you to never suggest that Palestinians have other Arabic speeking muslim lands to move to,since they are such crap holes even for thier own people.

Freedom of worship is not stopped by the Zionists. Wow! Now tell us how that gives Zionists a birthright of murderous theft of ANY portion of the Palestinian's homeland !

Looks like you are trying to find excuses to appease the offense of ZIonism which is the offense of murderous theft. Well, no matter how wonderfull you paint the ZIonists, Zionists still have no birthright of murderous theft of palestinian lands or anyone else's homeland.

Separation barrier. Nazis once built a barrieralong France's atlantic coast to separate them from people who would liberate Euopeans from Nazi occupation. Zionist occupiers of Palestinian lands also use the same defensive tactic in thier offenasive bloodsoaked war of conquest of palestinian lands. and Zionists still have no birthright of murderous theft of Palestinian lands.

Zionist nationalism includes the murderous theft of thier enighbor's homeland, so who gives a shit if they are diverse in thier offenses? Other nationalims that promote murderous theft of thier neighbor's homelands are also trashed as offenses, but Zionists get upset when they are trashed for thier bloodsoaked war of conquest. A right to exist and a right to self determination do NOT include any birthright of murderous theft of your neighbor's homeland. nobody attacked the nazis right to exist or thier right to self determination. BUT, when Nazis chose murderous theft as thier action, they did get attacked. And no wonder. Why would murderous thieving ZIonists be treated any better than murderous thieving Nazis. Is it because Nazis were a dictatorship where the people couldn't stop hitler, while ZIonists choose thier offenses and can end thier involvment in the ZIonist's bloodsoaked crusade without being shot as a deserter.

Zionism is not the nationalism of Jews. many Jews chose NOT to become murderous thieves of palestinian lands. NK, all the way.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
22 Aug 2005
In no way can the State of Israel be considered a colonial or hegemonic power. Israel is not a foreign invader. The State of Israel is built on the foundation of thousands of years of Jewish connection to and a presence in the land.

Moreover, Israel has no desire to empire-build, gain financial benefit, or rule over the lives of millions of Arab Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza Strip. As an example, Israel willingly withdrew from the oil-rich Sinai Peninsula in exchange for a comprehensive peace agreement with Egypt in 1979.

Israel�s presence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip is the result of a defensive war and the decades-long refusal of surrounding Arab states to negotiate peace with Israel. As a result of the Oslo process, by September 2000, Israel had redeployed from Palestinian population centers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, resulting in 99 percent of the Palestinian public living under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority. When the Palestinians began a campaign of violence and terror against Israeli civilians, Israel had no choice but to re-enter some of these areas. Israel�s has no interest in a long-term presence in the Gaza Strip as demonstrated by its planned full disengagement from that area.

Israel is committed to a negotiating process to determine a future of peace and reconciliation with the Palestinians which will entail further Israeli redeployments from the West Bank. Further withdrawals will be dependent on the end of Palestinian violence and a commitment to negotiations and reconciliation.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
22 Aug 2005
By the way, Troll, congrats on being in complete agreement with KKK grand wizard David Duke:

In an April 12, 2002 address, David Duke railed against "Jewish Supremacist Chutzpah," declaring that "Now we know that criticizing Israel is quote 'anti-Semitism' and thus is morally equivalent to the so-called holocaust in Nazi Germany."
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
22 Aug 2005
"Jewish conection to and presence in the land", Right. Hebrews once spent 183 years slaughtering or enslaving the locals. And then they lived there a while. Romans also were foriegn invadors. Did Roman rule of the canaanites (and Jesus boy Simon was a canaanite, so do try to tell us there were no Canaanite slaves in the land) mean that Palesitnian lands are also a Roman homeland??? I wnet into this already. Hebrews being murderous thieves of the land is a piss poor pretext for ZIonists to ALSO be murderous thieves of the land.

Zionists did invade. And they used the same bullshit rationalization Nazis used to invade Czechoslovakia. Germans once ruled the locals in the holy roman empire, AND there was Germans living in the Sudatne mountains. And you suggest that David Duke comming to the same conclusion as I do when it comes to Zionists and thier enablers attacking the messanger and running away from the message is supposed to mean something. It does mean something, that we are both right. You attack the messenger (me) for agreeing with Duke that ZIonists attack the messanger because they can't attack the message. Now lets hear how you rationalize Zionist invasion by using the same bullshit rationalizations Nazis used to invade Czechoslovakia. The irony sure is thick there, wouldn't you say???

Zionists are foriegn invadors and occupiers. Zionists invaded under the Brittish guns every bit as much as Hungarians invade Slovakian lands under the Nazi guns. Lets compare. Brittish occupy palestinian lands and promise some to ZIonists. Nazis occupied Czechoslovakia and offered some of it to Hungary. Hungarians didn't have to accept the offer. And ZIonists didn't have to invade Palestinian lands. But both hungarians and Ionists chose to invade. Zionists set up thier beach head kibbutzes. And when they were strong enough, with many guns and a shitload of heavey weapons from Czechoslovakia's Russain masters, Zionists broak out of thier beachhead Kibbutzes and took over 54% of the Palestinians homeland. palestinians faught back as well as they could. Having been disarmed by Britts and defenseless, they did about as well as Slovakians disarmed by nazis could do against heavily armed Hungarians . And ZIonistsand thier braindead enablers have the nerve to suggest that Palestinians resisting the ZIonists theft of Palestinian lands gave Zionists a right to take over 70% of the Palestinians homeland. What a load of crap you present to the ignorant masses? Don't you have anything but the ZIonist's tired old rationalizations???

Who gives a shit if ZIonists are empire building. They are 4 generations of murderous thieves who have never stopped stealing Palestinian lands nd have never hesitated to MURDER the PAlestinains who resist the ZIonist's thefts. "Oil rich" not by my atlas. Wow, was that a lie from YOU??? It sure as hell looks like it. And don't forget that Carter promissed to Finance the ZIonist occupation of palestinian lands AND pay the Zionists tribute to Egypt for appeasing the ZIonist occupation of Palestinian lands. But don't worry. most of that money makes it's way back to American military industiral complex as big profits to the war industry. And Sadat and beggin get the Nobel Appeasment prize for taking American taxpayers to the cleaners. Wow.

"Israel's pressence" (don't you mean bloodsoaked occupation and land grabs for ZIonist settlements? "Pressence", holy shit, could you showcase your prejudices any clearer for us?) in the West Bank and gaza is the result of a defensive war" ---yep, and I guess you would have to say Nazi occupation of france was also a "result of a defensive war". After all, Germany didn't declare war of france. France declared war on germany for invading Poland. Zionists occupy palestinian lands, there neighbors try and fail to liberate Palestinian lands from Zionist crusaders, and you try to scapegoat the "Arabs", who refuse to negotiate PEACE with Israel/ (appease the ZIonist occupation of palestinian lands) . well, for your information, Zionist occupation of Palestinian lands does NOT equate with PEACE any more than Nazi occupation of Czechoslovakia ment PEACE with the Czechs. Sure Nevil Chamberland's state appeased Nazi invadors of lands NOT England. Now, you try to suggest that Arabs state refusing to appease Zionist offenses in palestinian lands means they are BAD ARABS, mean Arabs. How pathetic that these tired old ZIonist rationalizations get. I really wish you had something ANYTHING that would actualy make me have to think.

Zionists moved out of population centers, leaving 99% under PA rule. AND the ionists still were stealing more and more Palestinian lands for settlements, even dooubling thier rate of theft after Oslo. The fact that the Palestinian people were not under dirrect ZIonist rule doesn't mean ZIonists were not still occupying the west bank and Gaza and that other portion of Zionist occupied palestinethat gets termed "Israel Proper" by the brainwashing TV set god. And what makes it proper for ZIonists to occupy other parts of Palestine. Why the judeo-christian dominated 1947 UN gave Zionists thier blessings for ZIonists to be murderous thieves of palestinian lands. that is all it takes for ZIonist offenses to be "proper, popular appeasment of western interloapers, NONE of which has ANY right to say who gets to live (literaly live, as thier reloading ZIonist guns as fast as ZIonists unload them into Palestinians shows quite well) in Palestinian lands.

Zionists constantly stealing more and more palestinian lands, water resorses, Zionist only access roads preventing free movement and hours at check points, and all the other offenses zionists commit, with popular blessings from interloapers, and finally, palestinians fight back. And it was against Zionists soldioers occupying the west bank. Over 180 palestinians were murdered by Zionist forces BEFORE the first suicide bomber struck at civilians. So again, you are caught lying to the people stupid enough to buy into ANYTHING you write.

Zionists occupying over 80% of the Palestinians homeland are negiotiating with palestinians. AND??? Nazis made a deal with what ever french oporutnists they could. Nazis offered French people over 1/3 of Nazi occupied France for the Vichey French state/. Zionists offer less than 1/6 of Zionist occupied Palestinian lands for the Vichey Palestinian state and ends up getting called a "generous offer" by the brainwashing TV set god. And French freedom fighters, who never numbers more than 6000 in the whole war rejected the offer of 1/3 and chose to liberate all of thier homeland from murderous thieving nazi invadors. They didn't see 1/3 of France under French controle as equating with PEACE. And I don't know of a single soul who does. Do you??? No. Well then, why would you suggest that vichy palestine is going to set Zionists apart as magnanomous??? It is just so pathetic how you just parrot out the ZIonist's tired old lies and rationalizations.

and of couurse, like the Nazis occupying France, it is DEPENDANT on the tiny fraction of a percent of the palestinian freedom fighters who will determine if Nazis leave Vichey France, oops, I mean, if ZIonists leave more, but not all of Vichey palestine of the west bank. And when the tiny fraction of a percent of french freedom fighters refused to appease the nazi occupation and continued to fight for liberation of all off France, Nazis responded just as you say Zionists have a right to, to continue occupying Vichey Palestine.

Once again, I trash every pieace of crap you dumped on this sight.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
23 Aug 2005
I was originally posting under the moniker "To Greg" but these comments are directed to Mr. Troll (what an appropriate name!) who wrote:

"It is better for Arbaic speeking Palestinians than other Arabic lands are for thier people. Well, then, I guess because Polish slavs were better off that Eukrainians starving under stalin's rule means Nazis were not murderous thieves of Polish lands and had a right to occupy Poland. Bullshit!"

WTF are you talking about, Troll? Political life in Israel--for Arab Muslims and Arab Christians--is better than in any Muslim country. No Muslim country has the level of political freedom--for Jews and non-Jews--that Israel has. In fact, a recent poll (by Zogby I think) asked the Palestinians what they viewed as a model for the form of state they'd like to have. Egypt, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Pakistan and all the other Muslim countries were examined as possible models. Know what the response was of vast majority of the people? Israel. I know it must come as a shock to you but there it is.

I'm not sure what it is but you seem to feel that if you repeat something often enough, it becomes true. This is a perfect case in point:

"tell us how that gives Zionists a birthright of murderous theft of ANY portion of the Palestinian's homeland."

Well, I would not agree that there was any "theft". Most of the land rightfully belongs of Israel and the "occupied territories" were seized in a defensive war against Israel's Arab neighbors. You see, Troll, Palestine was divided between two peoples, Jews and Arabs. The Arabs did not like the division and attacked the Jews. They were defeated, three times. In each war, the aggressors lost a bit of property. These lands are now disputed by Israel and the countries that lost them (Syria, Egypt, etc.).

The bottom line is the Palestinian people could have had a state a long time ago if they had not been convinced by their "allies" in the surrounding states that they had sufficient forces to drive the Jews "into the sea". Well, that didn't happen. So, their "allies" told them "hang tough, we'll defeat that big bad 'Zionist Entity', just you wait and see. But until then, live in these refugee camps."

Well, decades later some of Israel's neighbors finally came around to the realization that Israel was not going anywhere. Someday you may come to that realization as well.

And if warfare and the conquest of land are really general concerns of yours--not just in relation to Jews--I'm sure you're outraged by Arab Muslim imperalism in South Asia and Northern Africa. Or are you?

A more thoughtful person wrote:

"And Dex, what's wrong with Jews not living in Israel? Not every people has a homeland who would like one. Are we to partition all the land in the world based on the claims made in anyone's ancient mystical books?"

No. We are not. However, with the Jewish people, the connection goes beyond religious books. What we are dealing with here is self-identification, notions of identity and self-determination. Socialism, from the time of Lenin to Stalin refused that Jews were a "people". Therefore, Jews had no right to self-determination. Lenin supported the right of self-dtermination for all oppressed peoples except Jews.

The Zionist movement developed because Jews faced discrimination in every country they lived in. The dream was to return to the Jewish homeland where the Jewish people could once again be connected to the land, their own land. They would also be free to pursue whatever occupation they wanted.

Troll, you really need to get educated about these topic because you come across as a raving lunatic, not an experienced debator or scholar. The five paragrpahs of comparisons, for example, are nonsense.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
23 Aug 2005
Fine, for the Palestinians who were not routed from thier land by murderous thieving ZIonist crusaders, political life is pretty good. AND??? It is your supposition that this gives ZIonists a right to just move in take over, steal what they can, MURDER anyone who resists the theft, and route the bereaving widows and orphans of ZIonist conquest into the wilderness. FIne, now can you explain HOW political lifde in Zionist occiped Palestinians lands gives ZIonists thier alleged birthright of murderous theft of even 1 single rock in the Palestinians homeland. That leads us to your next vacant rationalization.

YOU don't thin that there was a theft. The land was devided (by wesetn interloapers who have no business giving Palestinian lands to Zionist who invaded Palestinian lands under the Brittish guns like hungarians invaded Slovakia under Nazis guns) . Fine, since the Judeo-christian dominated UN devided the land, can you now explain how the Judeo-christian dominated UN has ANY business giving Palestinian lands to ZIonist invadors??? No? What a suprize. We all know the land was devided by western interloapers. We also know that the Judeo-christian dominated UN has NO right to give Palestinian lands to Zionist invadors than they would have to devide up massechusetts. Since it was your supposition, can you add something of actual substance to your as yet vacant rationalization??? No? What a suprize.

The bottom line is that French people could have had a STATE(Vichey France) while murderous thieving Nazis occupied the rest. And it is the french freedom fighters who caused the French people's suffering rather than the murderous thieving invadors. And here you are making the same bullshit rationalizations that I just trashed. Talk about repeating lies an expecting them to end up the truth. You do that shit non-stop. A STATE. Wow, on the land that Zionist crusaders haven't yet stolen. And because the neighbors of the Palestinians tried to liberate palestinian lands from murderous thieving Zionist crusaders, they get attacked as being the aggresors. Just like some simple minded folks would say that England and France started world war 2 when they tried and failed to liberate Poland. What a pathetic nothing rationalization you insist on repeating, hoping in vain that your lies will someday become truth, IF you can get simple minded morons to buy into your vacant rationalizations. pathetic.

Muslim "imperialism" in south Asia and north Africa??? Is there such a thing??? Are you just baring false witness as a distraction. South Asia is not Arabic. In North Africa arabic speeking peoples are the locals. How could you be imperalistic in your own homelands??? What a moron. Sounds like you are just trying to vilify Muslims as a meaningless distraction. Moses said they should kill the Canaanite tribes and steal thier lands because "they are evil in your god's eyes." Good thing Moses is a self admitted devil worshiper (ex 19:5), or we a might all have fallen for his crap lies.

Some neighbors of the Palestinians realized that after decades of Zionist occupation of Palestinian lands, the ZIonist crusaders are never going to end thier bloodsoaked crusade. Well, that certainly doesn't mean it is right to appease murderous thieves who have never stopped stealing palestinian lands and have never hesitated to murder the Palestinians who resist the ZIonist's continuing offenses, including the ZIonist's decades long occupation of Palestinian lands. Well, I am a Christian. The prophets tell it all. the ZIonist crusader state is the abomiNation of Desolation. Who could do battle with such a beast? It will be GOD who liberates the biblical Israel from Zionist crusaders/enemies of GOD )Ez chapter 38, by thier fruits you shall know them). i'm just trying to showcase to others how they still have a little time left to repent before GOD smites them down to the lake of FIRE. I honestly don't beleive ZIonists will end thier bloodsoaked crusade, get out of palestinian's homeland and never torment the Palestinians again. I do believe that GOD will wipe the ZIonists and thier anti-Christian supporters out of existance.

Five paragraphs of nonsence that you run away from. Why ot just explain how they are nonesence rather than justparroting out more vacant rationalizations.

Self determination does not include a birthright of murderous theft. And for interloapers of the Judeo-christian dominates 1947 UN to give Palestinian lands to Zionist crusaders is to deny Palestinians thier right to self determination. And for ZIonists to take them up on the offer of palestinian lands is the offenses they chose. Stealing more and more Palestinian lands is also what the 4 generations of murderous thieving Zionist crusaders chose.

All you got is tired old Zionist lies and obtuse rationalizations. I feel sorry for anyone stupid enough to buy into your scapegoating garbage.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
23 Aug 2005
I missed where Dex asked where us murderous thieving white invadors of north America should go. Well Dex, first of all, our Christian and jewish ansestors were the murderous thieves. Not us. And the only Americans I know of who have been murderous thieves of our neighbor's lands are the Zionist Americans. but thanks for admitting that Zionists are 4 generations of MURDEROUS THIEVES by comparing them to our murderous thieving ansestors and asking where we should go.

I am part Creek and part Iroquois. I have had nothing to do with my ansestors crimes against my other ansestors. If you were not so prejudiced and just looking for a way to attack the messanger, you might be able to notice the differance between descendants of murderous thieves and actual murderous thieves who are still stealing Palestinian lands AS YOU READ THESE WORDS.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
23 Aug 2005
"Muslim "imperialism" in south Asia and north Africa??? Is there such a thing??? Are you just baring false witness as a distraction."

Are you really that dumb? I know trolls have a reputation for being big dumb brutes...

Let me make it simple for you. Arab Muslims invaded many lands and forced the people to adopt Islam or live as second class citizens.

Why do you think there are mosques in Africa? Let me tell you, Troll, there were no mosques in Africa prior to Arab invasion.

"In North Africa arabic speeking peoples are the locals. "

Why do you think people speak Arabic in North Africa? It is not an indigenous language and it was not a voluntary decision on their part. The Arabic language was forced on them, by Arabs. Look, people don't just decide one day, "you know what, my language sucks, I should speak the language of the people who are oppressing me." That language is forced on them. Just as the federal government of the US forced Native Americans to learn English.

"South Asia is not Arabic."

Yes, I am aware of that.

"How could you be imperalistic in your own homelands??? What a moron."

As far as imperalism, the Arabs ruled North Africa as a satelites of Arabia. Using Wallerstein's language, Arabia was the "core", Africa the "periphery". They used Africans as slaves and exploited their natural resources, just as the European imperalists would do many, many years later.

Regarding South Asia, it was not invaded by Arabs, but it was invaded by Persian Muslims. Islam was an imperalistic religion and culture that came to India in the 8th century CE. Prior to the Muslim invasion the people were mostly Hindus. The Muslims destroyed Hindu temples and replaced them with mosques. They forced Hindus to convert. Those who refused fled to the south (Tamil Nadu, Kerala, etc.) or to the terai in the north (the plains that form the border of Nepal with India).

"We all know the land was devided by western interloapers."

And? How is this different from the division of India and Nepal? Or India and Pakistan? All were divided by "Western interlopers" but for some reason people like yourself have no problems with these divisions but Israel gets you might upset. Why is that?

You need to work on your reasoning and commnication skills seriously dude, you come across as a dolt.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
23 Aug 2005
Yes, Arabs once conquered many lands. And the first thing they always did was to offer the slaves in those lands instant freedom for converting to islam. And they did, and they willing accepted Islamic rule because it kept them free from slave owning Christian and Jewish masters. In Palestine, the slaves were freed after 600 years of wnslavement Roman byzatine masters and 1200 years of enslavment to hebrew invadors. And they were loyal because they feared Byzantines returning to enslave them anew.

Now, hundreds of years later, the locals are muslims, and you try to scapegoat them for the invasion of Arabs who liberated more slaves than lincoln could even dream of. AND you try to suggest that is Arab imperialism. What a joke. have you nothing but obtuse rationalizations. have you nothing but crap.

How is it differant from interloapers deviding India and Nepal or India and Pakistan. Because the interloapers devided the palestinian's homeland between Palestinians locals and ZIonist invadors with the interloapers blessing to steal 54% of the palestinians homeland. While the devision of nepal from India and India from pakistan was a devision of local homelands. the fact that all 3 sides did so very poorly doesn't change that.

Enablers of Zionists sometimes like to compare the devision with a devorce. Well, only 3.5% of the Palestinians were Jews, and the rest were Zionist who invaded under the Brittish guns like Hungarians invaded Slovakian lands under the Nazi guns. An equitable devorce would give the Palestinian Jews 3.5% of Palestine. So how did they end up with the Judeo-christian (small c) dominated 1947 UN blessing to STEAL 49% and then turn Palestinian resistance to the theft of 49% of the Palestinian's homeland into a rationalization to steal over 70% and more and more???? Prejudcie is the answer. you attibute to the Judeo-christian (small c) dominated 1947 UN authorities that jesus denied even to him self. You worship the prejudices of the 1947 UN in idolotry.

All you got is vile scapegoating, moronic rationalizations and outright lies. If you had ANYTHING of substance, you would have presented it by now. Instead you resort the rationalizations Nazis used in thier offenses to appease ZIonist offenses.

If Nazi propagandists were the only ones telling thier story, they would come out looking pretty good. And whatever the outcome between 4 generations of murderous thieving Zionist crusaders and thier chosen Palestinians victims, it shopuld be based on the truth, and NOT on your offensive propaganda.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
23 Aug 2005
troll,

point blank: do you hate all jews?
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
23 Aug 2005
Dex,
The problem with Judaism - The real Judaism, not the watered-down mainstream American crap - is that it cannot be explained based on an imposed framework of Christian terminology.

So, a refresher course on Jewish calendricals:

Yom Tov - Literally "a good day" - is what is commonly translated as holiday. A Yom Tov does not necessarily celebrate or commemorate an event. Case in point, Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Shemini Atzeret & Simchat Torah, Rosh Chodesh.

A Yom Tzom, or fast day, may or may not commemorate an event; but it is the antithesis of a Yom Tov. The exception is Yom Kippur, which falls into both categories.

Additionally, Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur fall into a third category, Yamim Nora'im, awesome days.

Trust me on this one, I know my stuff.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
23 Aug 2005
Point blank, I hate murderous thieves. And to appease and finance the murderous thieves just because they also happen to be Jews is prejudiced. I do not share your prejudices and you think that gives you a right to slander me.

Ponit blamk, you just admitted that you can't see a differance between the people of Nepal and India forming thier own governments after Brittish invadors made it one political unit, and Zionist invadors deviding the Palestinian's homeland with them selves and thier victims. Shit, can you see ANY differance in this scenario??? Suppose Iraq were to devide into a Kurdish state, a Shiit state and a Sunni state. Now, compare that to Bush stealing 54% and letting the kurds Shiits and Sunnis do thier best with the rest. Do you see how that is not even similar??? No??? I guess you are too busy appeasing 4 generations of murderous thieves because they also happen to be Jews.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
23 Aug 2005
troll, you haven't made a single good point. not one. and i don't say that because i disagree with you. i think chip and craigh (with whom i disagree) did make good points. you sound dumb. like a broken record player. i'm done talking to you because you simply don't listen and, frankly, i think you are a person of very low intelligence.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
23 Aug 2005
sholom,
out of curiousity, on what authority do you say one version of judaism is watered down and another isn't? there ain't no jewish pope to tell us what is right and wrong and each jewish person is left to determine what they think is correct on their own, right? for example, nowhere in the bible is rosh hashanah even mentioned, right?

what you say is interesting though, and it sounds like you do know a lot, all i'm saying is that there is no jewish version of gnosticism because there is no specific sect that has any more authority than any other.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
23 Aug 2005
You have not made one single good point. And it isn't just because i disagree with you, either. it is because your rationalizations parrot the rationalizations of Nazis. It is because you resort to attacking the messanger rather than the message, and suggesting that I haven't made 1 point that you would condescend to adressing makes me subpar shows how you attack the mesanger.

So tell us. In your eyes, is Zionists just moving into the Palestinians homeland, taking over, stealing what they can (even as you read these words), MURDERING the Palestinians who resist, and routing the Palestinian victims of the Zionist crusade into the wilderness even RUDE? Come on, can't you even admit that it is RUDE ? Just RUDE??? You can't even admit that much.

You practice idolotry. You choose the beautiful lies over the ugly truth and would send me to the lions den for failing to share your prejudices. But hey, that is all the ZIonist enablers have.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
23 Aug 2005
It must really suck for you to be otued as a racist and ridiculed by "a person of very low inteligence."
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
24 Aug 2005
Dex,
As most of the "radical" community in Boston already knows, I choose not to hide behind the anonymity offered by the internet. I live in a WYSIWYG world. My posts on IMC are the same viewpoint as what one would get from speaking to me in real life. Don't believe me? Come have a chat with me in real life. I'm the "short, angry, crazy Jewish guy in a skirt" as some random troll has put it.

I speak on the authority of one who has been Jewish for 23 years, has been studying for as long, and is a rabbi.

IMC, however, is not a forum for me to discuss my religion, so come meet me in person and I will explain to you exactly why the people who organized this event have a watered-down Judaism.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
24 Aug 2005
Sholom, you are writing to someone who ued the same BS ratrioanlaizations to appease and support Zionis offenses that Nazis used to use. Do you honestly think that you can comunicate with such a closed mind? Dex has been right his whole life, how could he posibly be wrong now??? Snicker snicker.

Or maybe you are writing to him but for someone else, perhaps everyone else, including yourself. I know I will never reach such a damned soul. I just write responces to Dex and others to showcase how prejudiced and offensive they are. I want others to see how they run away from thier own Nazi rationalizations. eye bet u r 2.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
25 Aug 2005
I know you find historical facts to be disturbing so you just rant and rave. The Arabs who invaded Africa did not "free" slaves you dolt! They ENSLAVED African people. In fact, they still do. Back in the 1960s when Black Panther Party member Eldridge Cleaver was living in Algeria he complained that the Algerian Arabs treated the black Africans as second-class citizens and even stated that most middle-class Algerians had at least one black "slave". Those were his words, not mine.

Regrading South Asia, Islam was an invading religion and an imperialist backward culture. But don't take my wrd for it, talk to one of the 800 million Hindus in the world, they'll set you straight.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
25 Aug 2005
Dex,
In these online discussions, I generally tend to base my ratings of an individual's intelligence on how well they write. I'm not a spelling nazi or Conan the Grammarian, but I do expect some sort of legible dialogue.

The following habits (among others) are highly likely to give you a low intelligence rating in my book: Posting in ALL CAPS or no caps; doing ThIs AnNoYiNg BuLlShIt; using leetspeak or rapspeak; and using "words" such as U, R, Bcos, or 2.

Troll,
I'm not so much writing for this racist as for the benefit of the general IMC readership.

Incidentally, I've long admired your posts on Indymedia and would like to meet you in person; or perhaps I already have.

Grow up dude,
Once again, we get to read the lovely rantings of a racist. Apparently, you are not aware that there is a distinction to be made between Arabs and Muslims. SIEG HEIL and GO FUCK YOURSELF.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
25 Aug 2005
Grow up dude

Wow, first you go to the present to proove something of the past.

And then you go back hundreds of years ago to proove something in the present.

Wow, I wish I could be so delusional.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
26 Aug 2005
Troll,
You, too, can be so delusional. Just watch lots of television, believe everything they tell you, and don't use logic or intellect.

Wake up, people! They have you where they want you; fat, stupid, and lazy.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
26 Aug 2005
It is idolotry of the beautiful lies over the ugly truth. And people follow it religiously. People feel actual pain when thier beliefs are challenged. And if you choose not to bow down before thier idols, they will be happy to send you into the lion's den because your challenging of thier beliefs is seen by them as a challenge against them. Change is hard for some people. Even if the change is away from dmanationl and towards salvation. And peer pressure sure doesn't help matters for them. Fat lazy stupid and fearfull of punished for turning away from evi pathsl.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
27 Aug 2005
You speak the truth, troll.

So waht are we going to do about it?
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
28 Aug 2005
First, witness against the offenses to the offenders. If they refuse to repent, then witness to thier families. If they still refuse to repent, then into public discorse. Where we stand today.

You are the rabbi. Don't you know what comes next? God removes his protective grace and has the enenies of the offenders destroy them. Nothing has changed. It is the way it always has been.

You can't save anyone. You can witness against offenses, but the offenders must save themselves, or not.
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
29 Aug 2005
Dude, I'm an atheist.

And that sounds more Christian than Jewish. Jews don't "witness".
Re: Report Back On Anti Zionist Action in Newton
01 Sep 2005
I came back to post photos and am suprised this is still going. way to keep it alive.
Pastor Gerald Bell, Strong Tower church, Roxbury
11 Feb 2007
Pastor Gerald Bell at Newton City Hall candlelight vigil for Israel's victims on July 31, 2006

TRANSCRIPT:

Charles Jacobs: I now have the great pleasure and honor of introducing a dear friend of mine, Pastor Gerald Bell of Strong Tower church in Roxbury. Gerald went with us to Sudan to help emancipate black slaves taken by Jihad slavers. Gerald.

Gerald Bell: Good evening.

Audience: Good evening.

Gerald Bell: Good evening!

Audience: Good evening!

Gerald Bell: I bring you greetings from Strong Tower Church and from Strong Tower International Ministries in Boston. It was Charles who got me to go to Sudan where we helped to liberate African Christian slaves from their Arab masters. <<audience: applause>> My life was changed by that experience and it helped me form the way I see things now.

Tonight I come here to stand with you and the Jewish people, and with the Jewish state of Israel. And I come also to mourn with you. In a few days as has been stated that you’re going to mourn those who have died when the Temples were destroyed and others who have died because of senseless acts of murder and violence. In 2005 my wife and I had the great opportunity to visit the slave castles in Ghana West Africa. And as we were walking around those castles the spirits of my ancestors were so overwhelming that we began to break out in tears separately from one another. We walked in those slave castles where my fathers and my mothers were viciously starved to death and raped and beaten and killed. Nobody wants to remember! Nobody wants to think of the middle passages. So yes, I’ve come in a minority to stand with you ‘cause maybe one day you’ll stand with me, because we cannot forget those who have died. So we stand tonight. We stand tonight under the words of Prophet Amos when he said let justice roll down like a mighty stream and righteousness like a mighty river. I stand today as rockets fall on Israel’s cities, and as Arab terrorists try to kill Jewish men and women and children, and I came here to tell you that the same people, the same ideology of jihad that kills Jews in Israel committed mass murder of over two million Sudanese Africans. The same ideology that wants to wipe Israel off the map enslaved tens of thousands of Africans in Sudan. It is the same hatred of Jews and Christians that we see all over the Arab world, and it just took the life of a Jewish woman in Seattle.

There are many connections between Jews and Blacks. We have both been hated, and we have stood together against hate in this country. Now this new hatred targets us both. You in Israel, and now in Seattle, and us in Sudan, and even here in Roxbury. I think people, especially people in my community, are to understand this new reality, and to begin to connect the dots, and I’m going to help make that happen. When I went to Sudan…<<audience: applause>> When I went to Sudan I was accused of being a Jewish pawn. When I went to Sudan, I was told that the men and women that we freed from the jihad and the shiera law in northern Sudan and from Besheer, I was told that they, those women and children that they were prisoners of war, but no one had a gun. All they were were all women and children who were used in slavery. I stand with the Jews today because I believe they’re G-d’s people, and I stand with the Jews because the Jews stood with me. I stand with the Jews and with Israel today because as in the past we have to stand together against racist hatred. So I stand tall. And be brave! Don’t be afraid! I don’t care where my words go and I don’t care what they say about me. I’m not scared. Because it’s time now to stand, and many in my black community also stand with you. So I came here tonight to tell you that as we established our church, Strong Tower, the name of the Lord is a Strong Tower, and the righteous run to it and are safe (Proverbs 18:10) May G-d bless you all.
<<audience: applause>>