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News :: Human Rights
New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
22 Nov 2005
It was recently revealed, in a US-backed raid, that torture is going on under the auspices of the Ministry of the Interior. Despite the apparent media blackout on the topic, torture has been an ongoing tactic of the counter-insurgency work in Iraq. At first it was employed at Abu Ghraib and possibly other US military establishments in Iraq, and it quickly became a prime tactic of the newly formed Iraqi Police and Iraqi National Guard.
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The tactic became a regular tool in the Iraqi counter-insurgency toolbox and has since been used widely throughout Iraq. Ali Shalal Abbas and a number of former prisoners from Abu Ghraib formed the Association of Victims of American Occupation Prisons, or AVAOP to combat the issue of torture in Iraq. Ali’s organization alleges that there are at least 200 secret prisons similar to the one uncovered last week. They have many photos of Iraqis who have been tortured and are working on a full report about torture in Iraq.

On Sunday Mr. Abbas visited the office of the United Nations in Amman Jordan and presented them with a list of sites where AVAOP reports torture to be occurring. The Ministry of the Interior directs the seven locations released by the AVAOP to the UN Sunday. This is the same branch of the government overseeing the prison recently raided by the United States.

Khalid Jarrar, a Palestinian Iraqi who lives in Jordan, was also detained by the Ministry of the Interior. He was held in the Ministry of Interior building, which is also the location of one of the torture facilities identified in the AVAOP’s report. He claims to have been saved from torture only by the intervention of his family, “What happened is that my family could find the interrogators and then by knowing the right people and giving the right gifts, I wasn’t tortured unlike all the people that were there.” Those who helped his family ensure Khalid’s safety prefer to remain anonymous out of fear of retribution by the interim government.

During the two weeks that Khalid was imprisoned he witnessed numerous acts of torture. He confirmed the allegation of the AVAOP that the Ministry of the Interior runs a detention facility in their Baghdad headquarters. “Everyone that went through the Iraqi police or Iraqi National Guard was tortured brutally in a way that you can’t imagine. They were hardly alive. Kids 16 years old and old old men whoever was there was tortured and beaten for hours and hung upside down while being beaten.”

More evidence that people are being tortured by the Iraqi police has surfaced with the case of Omar Ahmed. He was arrested in the Adhamiya neighborhood of Baghdad on September 1st, 2005 with two friends. Eyewitnesses who wish to remain anonymous said there were no weapons or anything in their car, and it was impossible to determine why they were arrested.

Six days later Omar’s family was looking for him in he morgue. It is common practice now in Iraq when a family member or friend goes missing to look for him or her in the morgue if a few days go by with no word. On September 7th they found Omar’s dead body in the morgue, covered with wounds that indicated torture. His head appeared to have multiple puncture wounds or cigarette burns, and his body was covered with abrasions of various kinds.

Photos have also recently surfaced about another man, about whom little is known. His name is believed to be Dhiaa, and photos clearly show his skull was punctured with what is believed to have been an electric drill. Dhiaa is one of the latest victims in what is an expanding scandal of abuse at the hands of Iraqi officials.

These cases of torture as well as many cases of abuse under the Coalition Forces have been well documented. The AVAOP, the Christian Peacemaker Teams, Amnesty International and even Iraqi journalists have made various reports about the torture occurring in Iraq over the past two and a half years since the invasion. Mr. Abbas made it clear to me that the torture creates many problems for Iraq’s future. “When these people are inside the prison, many bad things happen to them, and when they are freed from the prison, they have become criminals. I hope the American people will help the Iraqi victims and stop these prisons. Because when someone comes through this, when he leaves, he becomes a criminal.

[Editor’s note: This article was written with local support in Amman from Shadi Al-Kasim and Jamil Najjar]

Brian “Sharpie” Conley is a 25-year-old filmmaker and member of the Boston Independent Media collective. He has recently returned from a trip to Iraq and Jordan, during which he gathered a wealth of interviews and other media to communicate the Iraqi Experience. He also aided the effort to establish independent media in Iraq by supplying equipment and training to people there. A full account of his experiences in the Middle East can be found at the website http://www.aliveinbaghdad.org

This work is in the public domain.
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What a lame title
23 Nov 2005
Torture is an old tactic of the american and zionist occupations not a "new" one. Even saddam was on the CIA payrole since '63 in cairo. The people of Iraq are now returning to sender the new bosses who were boss of the old boss.
The maruding carpetbaggers, Chauvinists, and american backed death squad militias are not "iraq police" they are colabraters.
The defeat of the invasion of thier country is a resistance movement by the people of Iraq not an "insurgency".
There is nothing "criminal" about expelling foriegn tresspassing zionist and christian crusaders even if they are assisted with thier suicides.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
23 Nov 2005
Terrorists get what they earn!
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
23 Nov 2005
>> Terrorists get what they earn!

If the US backed forces don't even follow their own laws how can *anyone* possibly see them as in the right?

How can you know that without evidence or trial that these people have done anything that fits the governmental definition of terrorism?

Remember, we're mostly hearing of this from people who were released, doesn't this suggest that were at least not "guilty" enough to detain. If they're not even worth holding how do you justify the use of illegal (according to US and International law) interrogation and punishment techniques on them?

After a good flogging and killing their families I bet they'll be "terrorists" now, so in a way it's a justifiable preemptive use of torture...
Tongue-In-Cheek Anyone?
23 Nov 2005
Am I the only one who thought the good people of the Northeast and elsewhere in the US would find this tongue-in-cheek title at least a little bit humorous? Irony truly is dead...
However, about your other comments, the people engaged in suicide attacks are considered by the Iraqi people, for the most part, to be terrorists, insurgents, or "Irhabis" in Arabic, those who primarily target the US and its allies in the region are seen as "Maqowamah" or "Resistance."
The enemy of my enemy who is also the enemy of my friend is still my enemy. Its not as cut-and-dry as "supporting the right to resist" and you can consider that as coming straight from the Iraqi horse's mouth. I was there. please check out www.aliveinbaghdad.org for more news in this vein...
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
23 Nov 2005
I think we should put Saddam back in charge. The Iraqi people are horrible and he was the only person able to keep them under control.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
23 Nov 2005
The Iraqi people are not horrible! They are a great and proud people who have been oppressed for many, many years. The DO NOT need to be kept "under control". They have the same rights as you and I.

Not a good post to keep around here.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
23 Nov 2005
"Terrorists get what they earn!"

Replace terrorists with infidels and you are saying the same thing as bin laden and al quida.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
23 Nov 2005
Not true. A terrorist that walks into a mosque in downtown Iraq and blows up a wedding party is a terrorist. A terrorist the beheads a civilian is a terrorist. A terrorist that is preventing a country from a peaceful future is a terrorist. Either way, terrorists need to go!
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
23 Nov 2005
"Terrorists get what they earn!"

Replace terrorists with infidels and you are saying the same thing as bin laden and al quida.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
23 Nov 2005
A terrorist that bombs and shoots civilians is a terrorist. A person that makes excuses for the bombing and killing of civilians is also a terrorist.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
23 Nov 2005
Executives who raise gas prices to make extra millions while families scramble for food and housing after a hurricane, are also terrorists.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
23 Nov 2005
>> Executives who raise gas prices to make extra millions while families scramble for food and housing after a hurricane, are also terrorists.

No, they are many bad things, extortionists, opportunists, leaches, greedy bourgeois pig dogs, but I don't think terrorist fits.

Let's not stretch the word to mean "anyone we don't like", even if some presidents do. This has been done with words like "communist" and "witch" do bad ends let's not join in.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
23 Nov 2005
the iraqis have more rights than we, follow the laws of the past 20 years.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
23 Nov 2005
<<<Not true. A terrorist that walks into a mosque in downtown Iraq and blows up a wedding party is a terrorist. A terrorist the beheads a civilian is a terrorist. A terrorist that is preventing a country from a peaceful future is a terrorist. Either way, terrorists need to go! >>>

So, let me get this straight Veteran, if an insurgent fighter specifically targets civilians for execution, he's a "terrorist", right? OK, so what does that make the American soldier who specifically targets civilians for execution? By the standard you're using here, it makes him or her a "terrorist" as well, no?

Also, while some of the actions carried out by SOME of the resistance fighters are all around condemnable, is kidnapping contractors or foreign diplomats really one of them? Civilians or no, they're still part of the empire and therefore legitimate targets (unlike the people who have simply gone to a mosque to worship). They made that choice when they streamed into Iraq to make a killing off of the occupation, as far as I'm concerned.

And finally, the resistance is preventing Iraq from having a peaceful future, sure, the same way the partisans who fought the Nazis and the Vichy in France did. Peace under the bootheel of a superpower isn't worth shit.
Boston Herald title writer hired on at BIMC
23 Nov 2005
The resistance doesnt target civilians they are civilians.

Many folks are aware that it is the occupier who does extreamly provocative attacks on civilian centers and blames them on the resistance to discredit them and undermine thier popular support and to cover up emerging scandles and other such bad news or to punish resistance gains or sabatage peace efforts or cause internal infighting among occupied people or to justify a large new power grap.

Some iraqis have reported that after entering american occupation bases to pick up confiscated possesions that thier cars were secretly loaded with explosives.

The brutality of it and the total command of spin the powers that be have fools a few kids but not all of us.
The president of the united states has spelled out in no uncertain terms almost constantly for 3 years that americas single greatest priority is rooting out people who use premeditated acts of violence against civilians for political and economic maintaince and gain.
The next time 3 arab hotels are bombed imediatly after a global CIA torture Gulgag is exposed and hours after all the israelis are evacuated, killing the palestinian intelligence cheif, while the president of the hotels host coutry is in talks with a anti american renagade pipline republic ask your self whos power and privliges are maintained or expanded.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
23 Nov 2005
Terrorists come in all shapes and sizes, and yes them big-oil execs who refuse to give back some of their record earings to the less fortunate may qualify. Why do the neo-cons hate Chavez from Venezuela, he actually cares about people! If anyone wants to know the truth, find the US energy policy document that preceded the California rolling black-outs, the Iraq misadventure and now the disaster related record profits. They are all related... biches!
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
23 Nov 2005
American soldiers are not trained to target civilians. American soldiers are trained to protect civilians. American soldiers will, without any hestitation lay down their lives to protect civilians. Happens every day of the week all around the globe. No comparison to terrorists. It sounds as if you are "shooting from the hip" without any training or time on the ground. Is that a true statement?
Either way, terrorists need to go!
24 Nov 2005
Yes. Bring the troops home, now!
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
24 Nov 2005
i notice that veteran didn't say anything about the actual article. how is you nice democratic iraqi government now?
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
24 Nov 2005
As for the article, it's like most of the stuff printed here. Facts aren't there and the info comes from questionable sources. Also, are you blaming the US military for Iraqi violence against other Iraqis?
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
25 Nov 2005
Why are these questionable sources? Is it because they are Iraqi civilians and not government officials? Are all Araba and Middle easterners, except Ahmed Chalabi, to be distrusted? It looks like a lot of people were interviewed for this article, thus meeting the general 3 source standard that journalist should use.

Also, the Iraqis wren't killing each other until the US showed up and created a war zone. So, the US is SOMEWHAT responsible for that.
Re: Statistics
26 Nov 2005
What is this about Sharpie making wild claims about Iraqi wealth?
Re: Statistics
26 Nov 2005
Yeah. What's up with that? You can't just claim Iraq was the 5th richest country before the war. That is pretty inaccurate. At least back up your claims.
Re: Statistics
26 Nov 2005
It's not the same thing to be a rich country and to be a member of the world economy. That's way off base!
Re: Trolls
26 Nov 2005
That wasn't me who posted that.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
27 Nov 2005
i didn't post that either. unless it was the other noah. in which case, hi noah!
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
27 Nov 2005
"Some iraqis have reported that after entering american occupation bases to pick up confiscated possesions that thier cars were secretly loaded with explosives."

Why do you willingly repeat bullshit like this?

There are plenty of arguments against the war. You don't need to resort to utter nonsense and propaganda.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
28 Nov 2005
So according to that last post...........We confiscate the cars, load them with C-4 and then give them back so we can be blown up alongside unsuspecting civilians? Do you really believe that?

So far this morning, there has been nothing but nonsense on here. Thankfully, i have to run and go chat with some intelligent high school students now.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
28 Nov 2005
Strange. They didn't teach us about that in business school.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
29 Nov 2005
I prefer eggs and bacon myself.
So let us get this straight.................
You, who have never served know more about what happens overseas than I who have been there. I tell you something that is truth, because I have no reason to lie, yet you cannot and do not have the ability to believe me? How did you get so scared, concerned or so distrustful of the truth?
Must be a hard life and my sorrow goes out to you.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
29 Nov 2005
Errrr.....

I think the whole point of this article is based on the fact that the author was, in fact, overseas and did, in fact, interview people directly for this article. His eyewitness and documentary interview processes are just as valid as any other source on this site, perhaps even more so because the author directly quotes individuals who are currently living in the situation in Iraq. While U.S. soldiers who are serving or have served over there have a legitimate perspective, Iraqi natives have a unique and perhaps more "real" perspective than we can ever have - it is their country and their homeland, after all. Thanks Brian for writing this report - I can't wait to see some of your edited video! Do you have any speaking gigs lined up yet? I for one would love to hear more personalized versions of this content.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
29 Nov 2005
Agreed. There is no better person to quote than those that have lived it. However, questionable interviews with people who may or may not be giving the complete truth cannot be verified. If you talked with the guests of Gitmo, they would all say that they were innocent yet the thrity guys that saw them fire an RPG at an ambulance may say something different.
Also, when acts of violence and torture are perpetrated by Iraqis against other Iraqis it is investigated.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
29 Nov 2005
I dunno Veteran... Maybe I'm biased because I work at a law firm. There are so very many cases of violence, abuse of power, or downright illegal activities by our state or federal employees, including elected officials and the military, that I can't help but feel jaded when I hear the various stories about what is happening in Iraq. Since I KNOW it happens here because I see it walk through the front door of the office on a daily basis, I also am pretty darned confident that those same atrocities happen in a country that is occupied by military forces and torn with internal political and social turmoil. Again, if it happens here in the land of “freedom and democracy” it is certainly possible that it is happening in Iraq.

Honestly, I don't think that Brian's interviews are questionable because I was corresponding with him while he was in Jordan and Iraq. He was staying at "legitimate" hotels and sharing sources with other "legitimate" news reporters who write or report for more mainstream news sources. The people that he interviewed or visited with were desperate to have their stories aired without being censored or rebroadcast by the western media out of context. If you don't mind my pointing out, your experiences or discussions with other veterans or military personell are just as “questionable” because they also might be people who may or may not be giving the complete truth cannot be verified.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
29 Nov 2005
So what you are saying is that you do not trust the word of any member of the state or federal government, including the military? Sounds like a tough way to live. Always unsure of what to believe or back.
Also you are a littel jaded but that is OK. American soldiers are held to a much higher standard than a civilian, especially those serving in harms way. I will not argue that there are cases of misuse of power, violence and so on. Working at a law firm, you probably do hear about the best and worst ppeople can do to each other here in the Boston area.It happens and everyone knows it. However, it does not happen on the grand scale overseas that is portrayed here. No one will argue that soldiers in all conflicts from every country acted 100% in accordance with their ROE. Todays American servicemmeber is the best trained educated individual to ever serve in any armed forces of any country. You may hear about the bad that goes on in the streets of Boston but the goodness that goes on overseas from out guys being there far, far overcomes the often unrelated and random acts of ignorance anywhere else. You have no reason to believe me but why would I lie? Why would I support a profession that is portrayed here as dumb, untrained and uncaring. I support and defend a profession that I served in and loved. I loved helping others, I loved the fact that I made a difference and kept innocent people from those that abused their powers and wanted to continue to visit violence and horror to them. I support and defend them becuase I know what it means to give the hope of a better life to a young child who has only nown fear.

The media is this country is often not what it is portrayed. You said that you spoke with this person through e-mails and that he was sharing info with other agencies. Do you know that many agencies will continue to share bogus stories even after they have been discredited. Know why? Death, cover ups and corruption sells. They are going to get you to buy the next newspaper or magazine. Do you really want to hear about the 1st Ranger Battalion (Airborne) rebuilding an orphanage and individual soldiers adopting kids? That's not news. Do you want to hear about the thousands of lives being saved by modern medicine? Not news either. M1 tanks blowing up a school bus is what you wnat to hear. That lets you automatically assume that there was kids on board. That will get you to buy the next newspaper only to find that there is a short blurb or nothing at all. No why? The bus had bad guys on board! I'm not wrong.
Re: d herring
29 Nov 2005
No one questioned *Brian's eyewitness accounts. * What was questioned was his interpretation of the facts.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
29 Nov 2005
Vet, you seem to be responding to attacks on individual soldiers, which no one here is doing. We are saying it is systemic and a top down problem. Idividual soldiers are not to blame for the abuse that is happening in Iraq, Gitmo, other rendition sites, it is the leadership. Many former military and governmental officials are now coming out to verify this very fact. Chaney is pushing congress to allow the use of torture while the military is saying that info obtained through torture is unreliable. Again, this is top down non-military personel making horrible decisions, not individual soldiers on the ground.

You also tend to display a double standard, you insists that we should not be jaded about the government and military, yet you are very jaded regarding independent sources and people on the left. What's with the contradiction? Is your ideology showing through?
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
29 Nov 2005
Why do you automatically not believe stories of abuse? I also have freinds in the military who say that what we know is very mild compared to what is going on. Then you have the pictures, the independent ngo acounts, the bush admin pushing for lacsity on torture rules and regs...etc.. All of this against your "freinds" testimony, I am not assured.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
29 Nov 2005
Why do you automatically not believe stories of abuse? I also have freinds in the military who say that what we know is very mild compared to what is going on. Then you have the pictures, the independent ngo acounts, the bush admin pushing for lacsity on torture rules and regs...etc.. All of this against your "freinds" testimony, I am not assured.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
29 Nov 2005
You just claimed that there is no direct attacks against the individual soldier yet the news articles that are on hear continue to state that American soldiers did this or American soldiers did that. American soldiers are on the ground all over Iraq. On this site, it is the individual American soldier that is being portrayed as untrained, uneducated and out of control. Is that correct? Now you blame it on the leadership. The same leadership that takes care of its troops and endsures that they are trained, educated, motivated and willing to lay down thier lives so that others may have a chance at freedom? American soldiers from the bottom up know right from wrong. They are not robots who jump at their masters bidding. Some here think that but they are wrong. Every member of the armed forces knows right from wrong and has the ability NOT to follow any order that they as members of the US military and the human race feel is wrong or unlawful.
No double standards here. I have the ability to listen to each and every discussion from both sides of the table. Soldiers are trained for that from day one. Independent sources are independent for a reason. They are usually not verifiable and come from individuals attempting to make a name for themselves. I have dealt with independent sources on quite a few deployments. Most are there to cause attention/problems and then film it and portray it another way. Please try and not tell me that all these independent sources have any credit because they don't.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
29 Nov 2005
Brad. Why do you trust these pictures? These are published by people with an agenda. NGOs traditionally have had a counter US agenda. I will give you that the pictures of naked Iraqi prisoners in a human pyramid being taunted by Lindsy England are real, but what she and her cohorts did hardly amounts to torture. Most college fraternities do worse to their pledges. It does amont to a violation of the laws of war which is why England and her cohorts are now serving time in the most maximum security prison in the United States. I actually personally know people serving in Iraq whose testimony I trust. While there are always instances of a few bad apples violating the law and the trust that the military places in them, these people are punished when caught. But the truth is that the military does not torture its prisoners of war.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
29 Nov 2005
You guys are saying things that are disputed by many, many former and current military personel. Example, Col Wilkerson, who just called Vice Pres. Dick Cheney a terrorist for his continued pushing for the ability of the military and intelgence to use torture to obtain info. Then there is Alberto Gonzalas, who as Bush's personal attorney called the Geneva Conventions "quant" and that they did not apply to pow's in the war on terrorism. Then there is the military's own admision that they use rendition on pow's. Then there is the refusal to apply the geneva conventions in Gitmo. I also doubt that the red cross is out to get the US.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
30 Nov 2005
Brad, you're simply wrong. First of all the provisions of the Geneva Conventions are being applied at Guantanamo Bay even though an argument can be made that the eneva Conventions do not apply to the Global War on terror, thus Gonzales's argument that they may not. But his is only an argument, it is not the policy. Every prisoner who arrives is given an Article 5 hearing to determine his status, for example, enemy combatant or unlawful enemy combatant. Enemy combatants are then categorized into the categories of military member and non military member. Military members are given greater protections under the Geneva Conventions, non military members are given different but lesser protections under the Geneva Conventions. Unlawful Combatants may be tried for being an unlawful combatant. Unlawful combatants who will be tried are given protections under tribunals rules. Lawful combatants and military members who will be tried for illegal actions are given protections under the under the UCMJ, the same legal code that our own soldiers are tried under. As for Wilkerson, he is entitled to his opinion, but he never suggested that Cheney wants to use torture. In fact, Cheney never argues that we should use torture. That is a word used by the left to describe any interrogation technique as torture. As I said in an earlier post, what Inmate England and her cohorts did in Iraq does not amont to torture. For the record, Wilkerson also argues that U.S. forces must remain in Iraq.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
30 Nov 2005
Most have thrown around the term NGO like they honestly know what they are referring to. You may know the term but not who they are or how they operate. A vast majority of the NGO's are biased and anti-military. How good is the information on any operation that they "assist" with? 'm assuming that only those that served know what I am talking about.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
30 Nov 2005
I hate to argue geneva policy with you, but you should look it up because you are dead wrong. Under geneva you are required to either classify detaines as POW's or set them free. The whole notion of enemy combatants or illegal combatants is in violation of the geneva conventions. You are falling for the old trick of muddying the water, they are either POW's or the US gov is in violation of the geneva conventions and is conducting war crimes. Don't argue with me until you look it up.

As for whether their has been torure at Abu Graib, it is simply silly to argue that there was not torture. Shoving a broom stick up someones ass is torture. Using dogs is torture. etc. To deny this is to approch the moral ground of Nazisim.

These are not isolated cases, it is systmic and top down. People do not torture for fun, they are commanded to do it by leaders.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
01 Dec 2005
Brad, torture is not ordered from the top down. I served a few enlistments as a combat soldier and I'll let you in on a little secret - We were never ordered to torture anyone! That surprise you? We were ordered EVERY day to report any and all possible breaches to the ROE. Being a member of a well trained unit with great leadership, we had no breaches. The fools acting as soldiers at Abu were dead wrong and deserve to be locked up for many more years than they got. That surprise you? Torture is not ordered, condoned or tolerated anywhere in the United States military. I know, I was there! Were you?
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
01 Dec 2005
Rumsfeild ordered the new "interigation tactics" himself and bush signed off on them. How is that not top down? Am I missing something? Did you serve under the Bush regime? How is it that such well trained soldiers could perform the acts in not only abu graib but also all over iraq, at gitmo and numerous rendition sites around the globe? Col. Wilkerson has attested to the top down nature of the offenses coming from the neocon "cabal" and called Chaney a war criminal. If it is systemic, wouldn't they try and pin it on scapegoats like the soldiers at abu graub? Why is the admin pushing for the ability to use torture? I am not blaming the soldiers, I am blaming the admin.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
01 Dec 2005
Brad, Brad, Brad........... So much to learn young grasshopper.

Let's try this from a different angle....... I served a few enlistments. Each enlistment is a few years, correct? With me so far? That would mean that I served under AT LEAST more than one Commander in Chief. On top of that, I was a combat soldier. One task we were trained in was gathering on a no name peice of realestate and setting up and running an EPW site. As I just stated earlier. WE were never ordered to torture. We did not condone torture. We would NEVER allow torture. If there was ANYONE in our AO doing anything out of line to EPW's they would have found themselves cuffed and stuffed adn hauled off for prosecution. IS it any clearer now?
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
01 Dec 2005
No, you answered none of my questions. I would think you would have learned to answer questions in the military. What the hell does your having served in the military have anything to do with this admins abuse of power and ordering of torture? If you can remove your self from your solipsistic world of personal anticdotes for one second and look at the facts objectively, you would agree with me that this admin is destoying your beloved militaries reputation.
Oh young vet, you have alot to learn about the world.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
01 Dec 2005
You whine that it is top down yet I was in the "top down" that you whine about. How could I and every other soldier that I served with miss these unlawful orders? You DO know that every single member of the military has the RIGHT and ABILITY to disobey any order that they as soldiers and humans feel is unlawful. You know that, right?
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
01 Dec 2005
and young grasshopper, while we are at it. Lets rethink the first sentence of this article.

IN A US-BACKED RAID.....................

As always, US forces are making every attempt to put an end to violence. Not just the terrorist trash but also Iraqi violence against other Iraqis. Not tolerated and not allowed.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
01 Dec 2005
How is conducting a raid an attempt to end violence. Violence does not end violence, it is violence. Using torture to stop torture does not show how great our intentions are. Using chemical weapons in falluja does not show that we mission to get rid of a user of chemical weapons is valid. We have become what we say we are against. We lie, murder and torture to defeat an enemy, while we become the enemy.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
01 Dec 2005
Brad, What is a raid? Tell me about the first raid you participated in.
A raid basically showing up unannounced to investigate some intelligence usually brought forth the the people in the surrounding area. That does not mean a tank is driven through a front door of a dwelling. Limited violence to defeat violence makes us wrong?
If your infant son or daughter was being held captive by some dirtbag high on drugs and the quickest and safest way to end the situation without losing your child was a 7.62 round through the head. You would be against that? Thats a lie!
Don't change the topic to WP either. WP is used and will be used for what it is intended. Not listed and trained on as a chemical weapon. Sarin, VX, Lewissite and others are chemical wepaons but not WP. Just becuase it is made from chemicals does not make it a WMD. Great tool but not one I personally fancied.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
01 Dec 2005
No one is holding a gun to any americans head, so your analogy does not hold up. In order to claim self defence you must first claim a legitamate threat against you.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
01 Dec 2005
Dodging the topic seems to be the SOP around here. Does defending innocent civilians from terror and fear count?
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
01 Dec 2005
Does US soldiers putting a stop to Iraqi violence against other Iraqis count as being "bad" in your world? Would you not want an American platoon of soldiers to come to your aid if you were in dire need? Thought so!
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
01 Dec 2005
US soldiers are the cause of Iraqi violence. Are you saying that the iraqi military cannot take care of its own people, that the iraqis are incapable of defending themselves? We will never know because the US army will never leave and so the insergents will have a legitimate goal of defending themselves from the invaders.

You obfuscate by shifting away from your original argument that it was self defense of US citizens. Clearly it is not.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
01 Dec 2005
Again, Iraqi violence against other Iraqis was one of the reasons we went in there. That is a known fact. American soldiers are not the cause of Iraqis harming each other. Up until recently, the former Iraqi military was responsible for alot of the torture which WAS sactioned and ordered from THEIR top down. Those that fought back, payed the price. Those that surrendered will be tried by theri fellow countrymen. The new Iraqi army has become better at protecting themselves and their country and will do fine when we are no longer needed or requested.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
01 Dec 2005
Brad. Sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this. You apparently have not studied the laws of land warfare. I have. The Geneva Convention defines what a lawful combatant is. Lawful Combatants are entitled to POW protections. They are also subject to being tried for crimes that they have committed. The other category is unlawful combatants. Those who do not fall under the first category. Now, obviously, the first category includes enemy military members. It also includes certain non military members such as militia's who wear some sort off identifying mark and answer to a chain of command. It also includes Levees en Masse but only under certain circumstances. If there are Lawful Combatants, then there must be ipso facto, unlawful combatants. What are these? These are such people as foreign mercenaries not fighting for a government but fighting for war lords or other private individuals. It includes those who enter a war zone to kill lawful combatants but who do not answer to a chain of command. There are also bandits and terrorists. These people are not lawful combatants and may be held or tried for crimes. That said, the United States has applied POW treatment even to those who, after an article 5 hearing are deemed unlawful combatants. Your contention that these people must immediately be released is illogical. If that were the case all fighters would want to be unlawful combatants so that they will simply be released and will be allowed to come back and kill another day.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
02 Dec 2005
Great response to Mr. Brad.
Speaking from the Army side of the hosue - EVERY SINGLE year we had to attend MANDATORY training and classes on the Geneva Convention and the Rules of Land Warfare. Brad, did you know that? Also, please do not even attempt to whine that what we were taught was altered. that would be a usual response from you and others. We know it because we lived it. You think you know it because you think you heard the truth from someone on here who is biased towards the military.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
02 Dec 2005
Vet #3, nice try. But you cannot lie your way out of this one. Nowhere, not one place in the Geneva conventions does it mention lawful or unlawful combatants, legal or illegal combatants or anything close. You see the Geneva conventions applies to any and all POW's, that is it applies to anyone held by a military. The attempt to muddy the water by talking about lawful and unlawful combatants is pure BS by the bush admin. It is a violation of the Geneva conventions to not declare military prisners as POW's. End of story.

Conventions III article 82 through 88 states that all POW's must recieve a fair trial.

Convention III article 77 states all POW's have a right to legal advice.

Convention II article 54 states all POW's must be held in facilities of the same standard as a countries own military.

All three are currently being violated at GITMO and in Iraq. I smell war crimes.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
02 Dec 2005
Brad, you may smell something but it's not war crimes. Soap and water may help or some air freshner to clean up the green haze wafting out of the pipe.

Lawful and unlawful combatants were discussed when I was in even prior to the current Commander In Chief.

The articles you quoted are kind of funny if you think about it.
#1. Trials will be had.
#2. Legal advice is being provided to those that request it and are willing to use it. Can't force it on detainees that refuse it.
#3. This one is priceless! So the hot food, showers, clean clothes, dental/medical care, exercise and beautiful warm weather is a violation and they should eb tortured, malnourished and stuffed in a disease ridden hole in the ground? Brad, I am going to assume that you have "visited" a detention facility here in the good ole USA. YOU DO NOT want to visit those overseas! Priceless!
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
02 Dec 2005
regardless of the state of the prison, it's still prison. i'd rather be free in the worst hell-hole on earth than be caged in a palace. human rights are the issue in this particular topic. brad raises excellent points.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
02 Dec 2005
You say that but don't know what you are speaking about. Of course EVERYONE wants toi be free. thats why we are assisting other countires. Also, this is not a discussion about freedom and where that freedom is taken.

Again, this deals with detention. The country club they are in now is better than any place most of them have ever been in their entire life.

I do agree that this is about human rights. Humans have the right to walk down the street without fear of being blown up by some wacko, misguided freak who hides behind his version of his religion. The right to be able to leave your hosue at night and not be shot for supporting a different idea. Human rights are what the military is all about! Ensuring and preserving them!
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
02 Dec 2005
Vet again you obfuscate behind nonsense. Under the geneva conventions there is no such thing as lawful or unlawful combatant. Look it up.

As for you point about how great the prisons in the us are, it is a fact the the us military is running prisons in Iraq and elsewhare that the red cross (hardly a beacon of liberalism) has called not acceptable. I suppose you will now attack the red cross. The UN has said the same thing, but you will attack them too. Soon it will be only the US against the world because everyone is out to get us huh. Just like Hitler.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
02 Dec 2005
Guessing you have never had to deal with the Red Cross overseas. Not the most trust worthy people you will meet. Enough said about that.

Actually the world is a better place than it was back in 1939-1945. To even mention or compare it to the Nazi mess is shameful.

Again Brad, you have not sat through hours upon hours of classroom training that you think you know something about.
Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Rice & Crew Are The Terrorists!
03 Dec 2005
Since Bush and his crew knew a year prior to the WTC attacks. And did nothing. The downing street memos prove that monkeyboy was going to lie to us. Again, one year prior to the invasion of Iraq.
The only terrorists I see. Is this whole criminal administration.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
03 Dec 2005
detention is prison, regardless of what you want to call it. being free is also very different from having to live under an imperialistic rule and having american "freedom" forced down your political throat with military force.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
04 Dec 2005
We knew about the WTC attack? No president in the history of the United States would have sat quietly and let our civilians be murdered. Keeping in mind that the president is not a mind reader with a crystal ball - he is surrounded my men and women who love this country and would gladly lay down their lives to protect it. Thinking that anyone knew that we were going to lose over 3000 people in one cowardly attack is just nonsense. Detention is the taking of owns freedom without their liking it. Those that are detained are those that chose to use their time on this great planet for evil. If detention is all that they got then they should count themselves lucky. Their victims aren't here!
One Last Note...
04 Dec 2005
Anyone who beleives this bunch are saints? Are living in a trance!
Scooter, have you ever heard about Operation Able Danger?...Go to this link.
http://washingtontimes.com/commentary/20050814-095413-9369r.htm
Fact is the military knew one year prior.
Peace to the truth seekers!
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
06 Dec 2005
Trash!
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
06 Dec 2005
"No president in the history of the United States would have sat quietly and let our civilians be murdered."

Declassified documents have shown that FDR knew of the plans to attack pearl harbor before it happened, yet he did nothing because of a desire to involve the country in the war.

9/11 could be about the same, many have claimed that the knowledge of an attack, with airplanes and tall buildings as imminent was well known in the intel comunity (Clark, able danger, daily president breifing, etc). Time will only tell if it turns out that the specifics were known and let slip for political gain. It seems to fit in, as the Bush admin only gained from 9/11 and was prepared with many policy recomendations instantly after.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
06 Dec 2005
Silly Brad.
There is a HUGE difference between having bits and pieces of intel that MAY lead to any number of events and KNOWING something for sure. Again, no president or any member of the US military or government would sit quietly and let innocent US citizens be murdered. Never happen! We are better than that.

"was prepared with many policy recomendations instantly after." Again, you show that you know very little about this countries preparations. We are a highly motivated and somewhat orgainzed country in that we try and think/plan ahead. I'm guessing that you are one of those that whine that the War on Terror was quickly implimented because it was already palnned. Right? Ding, Ding! Give that youngster a prize. The War on Terror's planning began back in the 80's. The prior war in Iraq has been palnned since the last Gulf War. Please stay with me and not try and read into this. There are contingencies for everything and everywhere in the world. They are constantly updated and adapted on a very regualr basis. Can you guess the reason? IN CASE they are needed to be acted upon because time is money and lives! Not having this knowledge would lead you to make misguided/ignorant decisions but that can be understandable.
To: Veteran
06 Dec 2005
Since you love these right wing criminals. Why don't you save your lies for a right wing blog site? Your babbling on indymedia is about as important as Condi Rice is to the Middle East!
Grow up and read!
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
06 Dec 2005
Head out of the sand and stop being paranoid. The world is not out to get you. No one is hiding under your bed and your phone is not tapped. Please take the time to open your eyes and take in this great country for what it is - full of great Americans! Smile and keep up with the meds.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
06 Dec 2005
Soooosh! I am already a cable television subscriber and I do get the Science Fiction channel.
Conspiracy is a word you seem to throw around an awful lot. Is there anything that you believe to be true? I, and the rest of the population, wonder what happened to the few individuals that throw concpiracy this and conspiracy that around constantly. Doesn't it get tiring being so scared/paranoid and lost all the time? It must be physically exhausting. Amoung my many talents, I am also trained in emergency medicine. You would quite possibly qualify to be "pink slipped" for some of the things you say and beieve. Again, the world is not full of monsters just the ones you event. Lighten up and enjoy the holidays - rest assured Santa is not bugging your house.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
06 Dec 2005
Vet, you claim that no one is hiding under your bed and that we should stop being parinoid regarding the goings on of our government. This strikes me as ironic comming from a man that proclaims the whole world has a terrorist plot to "take us down". The only one beliving in the boogie man here is you and the people who think we should alter our lives, destroy our reputation, commit international crimes and take away our own civil liberties to stop the evil doers from coming to get us. Wake up, the world is not bad, it is not out to get you. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Once we give in to the fantasy that the terrorists are coming to get us we empower them and the people domestically willing to take advantage of the fear they help create. This country is a democracy (at least I still kind off think it is) that means it gets its strength through dissent and the questioning of policies of the government. You are intitled to your oppinion and I mine. If you attempt to stop me from my freedom of dissent you are being anti-american in the most direct sense. I am not saying that is what you do here, but you trend really close. If you have a beef with islam that is your deal, not mine or anybody else in this country. Just like if I have problems with corporations, it is my deal and others of like mind. We do not go onto hate group sites and preach anti-corporate propaganda. Why do you come here?
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
06 Dec 2005
Never once did I state that the world is full of terrorists that want to "take us down". There are those few misguided lunatics out there that mean to do us harm. They will be dealt with by a few well placed 5.56 and 7.62 rounds and we will move on and continue to thrive and be happy. That is the goal of everyone sane on this great planet. No one has taken away any of my civil liberties and no one that I assocaite with has committed any crimes.

Not quite sure what your point is here?
Veteran...One Last Time...
06 Dec 2005
7.62, 5.56, .45 whatever! Your macho bullets mean nothing here! Really!
I served. I loathed. I got my honorable. Without killing anyone.
There's people with open eyes. Then there's people who cannot or will not open their eyes. Which one are you?
The more I read your sub-standard comments. The more I realize you're either working for the government? Or you're one of those people who don't want to know the truth.
The web is your teacher. Use it.
Forget the porn, games and other distractions.
YOUR BRAIN IS A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE!
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
07 Dec 2005
Not making an attempt at being macho. I have no one on here to impress.

Those that harm others will meet their fate with a large proporation of them being by 7.62 and 5.56, also a few 9mm thrown in for good measure. Your silly!

If you honestly served and yet you say you loathed in the process - we can also assume that you were a substandard individual who was not a team player. Please do not disrespect those of us that put a meaning and a purpose to our time in the military. You obviously wasted yours and everyone elses time, that is if you served. By your nickname and comments it is quite doubtful.

We do agree that a mind is a terrible thing to waste. Working on my second degree, free of charge thanks to the Untied States Army, so please don't tell me I have no idea about what happens in the world. You, sir, sound like a lost little child clinging to any misguided group of kids that will let you hang out in their club house. The world is not out to harm you and their is no black helicopter hovering over you. Open up, listen and learn. You might just have a little more respect for yourself and the people in your life.
Veteran. Let Me Educate You.
08 Dec 2005
First and foremost. I served from 1974 to 1980. U.S. Army. (2 years active, four years inactive.) Back then, the Drill Sergents punched, kicked and spit on trainees.
Why shouldn't I loathe immature crap like that?
As for your comments regarding my service time? You're a punk. Why should I listen to a broken record.
Get a life. Bush and his criminal friends will go down in history as what they truely are. Criminals and losers!
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
08 Dec 2005
As I stated earlier, vulgar and negative comments should be a little bit more tactful.

The draft ended in 1973. Did you volunteer and then realize that you made a mistake?

If you served, you loathe what you could not handle or adjust to. Understandably physical punishment was wrong during training and that is why it was done away with. It broke some men and ruined them for many years to come.

I am a punk yet your posts seem to stem from immature tirades. I can assure you that I am an aduIt and a good person. I can also assure you that I am not overwelmed with ideas of conspiracy and spooks tapping my phone. The current president, whether you like him or not, will go down in history as a motivated world leader who wanted to do good by stopping thoise that cause harm.

Have a good day!
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
08 Dec 2005
Sorry vet, this president will go down as one of the worst bungling war criminals of all time. His legacy will be the downfall of this great country. The war dodger will ruin the country by pursuing something he knows nothing about.
Re: New Anti-Insurgency Tactic has Gained Wide Appeal in Iraq
09 Dec 2005
Morning all! Lots of white stuff on the ground. N osnow day here. :(

Actually, unless the world turns on end, which won't happen, our kids will be be reading about George W. as an American hero when they get to high school.
beach
27 May 2006
Excellent site, added to favorites!!
illness
03 Jun 2006
Greetings!..